Would MNHQ consider extending the definition of "misgendering"

[HermioneWeasley]

Hi

I wondered what MNHQ and MNetters thought about extending misgendering to include referring to people as "cis"? There are many of us who find it offensive and reject it. Given that whenever it is used, there always at least one poster asking what it means, it seems unhelpful at best and offensive at worst.

You make a very good point ClearEyes, the language we use really does shape how we think. The obvious example is that Russian has separate words for light blue and dark blue which makes Russian speakers better at distinguishing lighter and darker shades of blue. Conversely, Japanese uses the same words for green and blue and this makes green and blue harder for Japanese speakers to distinguish.

One of the problems that I have with cis is that it presumes that everyone has an internal gender identity and that makes it easy to make the leap to it being possible to have the wrong one for your sex.

I have seriously seen on twitter someone saying "ugh, TERFs are so ahistorical - how can they know the gender of people hundreds of years ago they never met?"

This was over several tweets, and apparently in response to someone referring to a pregnant historical person as a "woman".

This was yesterday, and did not appear to be mocked as it so rightly deserved.

"Ahistorical". Dear fucking god.

Whereas trans people love to trans historical figures e.g. Joan of Arc.

I do not wish to see the term or concept of "cis" banned. (Though I often see it used to suggest a binary split that I find misinformed). But I think MN's previously stated policy, plus their very very longstanding policy on deleting personal attacks MORE than covers complaints against posters who repeatedly use the term cis to describe those who have stated they do not identify as such.

I do not wish to be referred to as cis.

That is not my gender identity.

I consider the term cis a misogynistic slur when applied to women.

I am not cisgender. Gender = sex role. I do not agree with sex roles. Gender is also a hierarchy and I do not agree that girls and women should be awarded lower value and status than boys and men. Gender = lady brain. I do not have a lady brain I have a human brain.

I particularly refuse to be called cis by men. (TiggyD please take note and don't cis me.)

Yes, MNHQ, can we please have answers: will you delete posts when 'cis', or indeed 'cissy', is being used as a pejorative? When someone purposefully misgenders you using cis when you have objected to the term?

I reported a CIS post the other day

Mumsnet told me they would look at it and then put their decision on the thread (or words to that effect, I can't remember exactly what they said)

They haven't yet

Consider yourself lucky that you at least got an answer by email. I never did.

Surely even if you agree with what people want cis to mean - that someone's biological sex matches their internal gender identity, you are at risk of misgendering someone every single time you use it, because you can't know what someone's internal gender identity is unless they have specifically told you?

For example, if I called someone a transwoman, and they came back and said 'don't call me that, I'm genderfluid, you're misgendering me'. I would apologise (else be labelled as a TERF, might happen anyway). But if someone called me a cis-woman and I said 'don't call me that, you don't know what my internal gender identity is' I suspect I would be told to check my cis-privilege and then labelled a TERF.

When I use the term woman, I use it to mean a biological category. Human female person. The opposite to trans is not cis. The opposite to trans is biological man or woman.

And funnily enough, there aren't huge populations of men talking about finding the best way to redefine their biological reality to be accepting of transmen.

Bumping

Bumptiddleybump bump..bump! Bump!

We're on to a loser here. I reported all the posts on the other site stuff thread where gender critical feminists are called cis, hateful, bigotted etc or compared with BNP members or homophobes. About 12 posts in all (and I didn't even bother with the more oblique insults) and it was all left to stand.

Agreed queen

I'd just like someone at MNHQ to show some manners and basic respect and respond to the question

It's a yes, or a no, or a "we need more time to think about it"

The name of the game is to double down on who is the most "oppressed" and who can claim the most umbrage. In a world without free speech the only defence is to curtail your rivals' speech as well.

So, if I can't call Jenner a "he", then I don't want anyone calling me "cis."

Seems fair enough. Tit for Tat. Why should their group get special protection at my expense?

BUMP...FUCKING...BUMP

Hi MNHQ

Can we please have a response to this thread - specifically to the use of the term 'cis', which many of us object to.

Thanks

BOW

Have had response from MNHQ to say they are

"currently discussing the 'misgendering' thread and will be posting soon.
We are really sorry for the delay on this."

I have to say, I am fine with MNHQ taking whatever time they need, as they've been better on letting us get on with this discussion than most other boards out there. Asking not to be called "cis" would have us banned and deleted (and hounded from the internet) on plenty of other places.

We do create content (without users MN would not be the thing it is) but we are still playing in someone else's sandbox.

I agree annie

I would be more than happy with a "we are discussing and will get back to you when we have an answer"

It's the radio science I have a problem with

But happy that bore took one for the team and got a reply

Hi all,

Thanks for your posts and apologies for taking so long to get back to you.

Our stance on this is that we think there is a discussion to be had and we'd like MN to be a place where everyone can have that discussion.

We don't think flat banning certain terms is the way to go on this one at the moment. We think that folks should be civil and respectful of others and their points of view and by banning terms we would stifle discussion, we'd much rather look at each post in the context of the thread.

Having said that, if posters persistently misgender by using cis, or the incorrect pronoun intentionally to goad, then please do report and we will deal with them as a goady poster.

We will happily re look at this again and again until we have an overriding consensus from the MN community.

The discussions have been incredibly informative and we hope many people are reading them and learning more about Transgender and the varying views surrounding the terms involved.

Thanks Rebecca.

Thanks for this, Rebecca.

Thank you

Thanks Rebecca.

Thank you