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Original poster

Would MNHQ consider extending the definition of "misgendering"

229 replies

HermioneWeasley · 02/06/2015 20:30

Hi

I wondered what MNHQ and MNetters thought about extending misgendering to include referring to people as "cis"? There are many of us who find it offensive and reject it. Given that whenever it is used, there always at least one poster asking what it means, it seems unhelpful at best and offensive at worst.

OP posts:
Original poster
HermioneWeasley · 02/06/2015 21:58

cats you are not being thick. You are doing the same "whaaaaaaat?" That a lot of us have been through - trans allies for many years who are now saying it's become a total headfuck.

Yes, you as a biological woman who doesn't feel like a man, would be referred to as a "ciswoman". That is because transactivists want the word "woman" to include some of the group known as "men". But for reasons I simply cannot understand the terms "biological" or "born" woman are not acceptable either. I can't help you with why not!

ehric I don't know the details of the misgendering policy, but IIRC on another thread, a poster was deleted for referring to someone who looked very much like a man as "he". Not a MNetter - it was a link to an article. If you google Jodi, trans, primark you can see the photos and take a view.

OP posts:
EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 02/06/2015 21:59

Brains do have a sexuality that develops during childhood/adolescence and then solidifies during adulthood. It's quite possible to identify which areas of the brain govern sexuality and sexual response. That's not to say brains have an innate sexuality at birth (I believe jury is still out on what determines sexuality) but the sexuality develops over time.
Accepting that a person is sexually attracted to men or women because they say so isn't the same as accepting that a person has a brain gender that doesn't match their sex.

CatsCantTwerk · 02/06/2015 21:59

Does the word 'cis' go both ways, or is it just woman who get the name tag?

Are males classed as cismen?

nameChangeQueen · 02/06/2015 22:01

Does it now mean someone who buys into whatever the current social identity of a woman in their country is?

And that is one of the reasons I don't buy 'cis' as a concept. Gender is a social construct, it isn't an innate identity of mine.

FloraFox · 02/06/2015 22:01

Having said that, I do think differentiating between female/woman and male/man can be quite useful, as sex and gender are different things

Woman = adult human female
Man = adult human male

We have the distinctions.

I would prefer that we had no restrictions on how we discuss these issues. I'd like to be able to state that X is a man because he has a penis. I'd put up with someone calling me cis in exchange although I utterly reject that term. I could simply say so in response.

Most women are not happy with the cis nonsense and I think the more this is discussed, the more women can see it for the emperor's new clothes that it is.

Borka · 02/06/2015 22:05

But what does 'feels female' mean? How would you define that without referring to the current social identity / stereotypes of being a woman?

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 02/06/2015 22:06

The thing about cis being connected to accepting gender norms etc is because to accept the concept of innate brain gender you seemingly have to accept the idea of innate gendered behaviour. Loads and loads of trans literature talks about early signs being things like boys wanting to wear dresses or play with dolls. Accepting brain gender seems to be synonymous with accepting normative gendered behaviour which many women have issues with.

Borka · 02/06/2015 22:07

Sorry, my post's really out of context - I didn't realise that there was another page & was replying to something on page 2.

MNHQ
TheOnlyOliviaMumsnet · 02/06/2015 22:11

Hallo
We thought it would be best to link to you our last discussion with y'all on this (which I missed as was off having baybees):
Mumsnet and transphobia our thoughts
Thanks
MNHQ

Indomitable · 02/06/2015 22:29

Correct me if I'm wrong:

So cis is used in opposition to trans to distinguish from those born/genetically a particular sex/gender from those who have transitioned to it from a different sex/gender.

If that is the case, I've no issues at all.

If cis is used to mean one who performs in accordance with 'traditional' or culturally accepted/expected gender roles, then that's a different issue and it could be argued that some trans people are actually transitioning to a cis identity.

Personally I see no problem with dropping cis and trans entirely. If you want to define yourself as 'woman', then do. Your history or biology or gender performance is neither here nor there.

However, I'd prefer 'person' above all of it.

ChuffinAda · 02/06/2015 22:34

I put cis into my twitter search bar.

Wow there is a whole lot of hate in this world.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 03/06/2015 11:47

I do think when someone calls someone cis after that person has repeatedly said it doesn't describe them, it's a personal attack and should be deleted on those grounds.

RufusTheReindeer · 03/06/2015 14:43

olivia

So was that a no then?

PlentyOfPubeGardens · 03/06/2015 14:45

I would be in favour of this. My objections to being called cis are pretty much what Ehric said above.

I read through the thread you linked to Olivia - MNHQ stance seems to be to make no hard and fast rules that might stifle discussion or take no account of context. I agree with this stance, however here BeccaMumsnet says, Any posts reported to us that we feel are deliberately misgendering an individual, we will delete. So it appears that there is a specific rule against 'misgendering'. That being the case, I think it should also be not OK to label people as cis unless they are happy with the word.

Obviously this doesn't prevent anybody from self-identifying as cis if they want to.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 03/06/2015 15:01

If misgendering is 'violence' against trans people then it is also violence against people who are not trans. I view the concept of cis as being damaging and harmful to women so as far as I'm concerned it's as 'violent' as misgendering a trans person.
Trans people have protection (rightly!) but that's not to say that they are more in need of protection or more vulnerable than women.

TiggyD · 03/06/2015 17:42

Indomitable said:
"Personally I see no problem with dropping cis and trans entirely. If you want to define yourself as 'woman', then do. Your history or biology or gender performance is neither here nor there."

Good idea. We could drop the trans and cis prefixes. It would make talking about trans issues a nightmare though.

There are a lot of people on here who want to use the terms "women and trans women". A bit like the Daily Mail referring to somebody as "The gay actor...". They don't want people to think of it as normal. I believe it's known as "othering" in some circles. A technique to marginalise a minority group.

Methe · 03/06/2015 17:59

Tbh all this trans talk is making me want to turn Mumsnet off for good.

I couldn't give a shit about any of it.

deadwitchproject · 03/06/2015 18:21

So it appears that there is a specific rule against 'misgendering'. That being the case, I think it should also be not OK to label people as cis unless they are happy with the word.

Obviously this doesn't prevent anybody from self-identifying as cis if they want to.

Agree with the above.

ChuffinAda · 03/06/2015 18:26

I posted this twitter conversation on the other trans thread. It's one I found on there when looking up the term cis. To me it shows cis is a derogatory term intended to be used as an insult

However will I explain cis people to my kids
@oddtwitterer Jesus. Give them a very stiff drink first. Because ugh.
@randomtwitterer gather round children, let me tell you a horrifying tale of cisness

@originaltwitterer Cis people are close-minded & cruel. I want to teach my kids imagination & compassion. I don't want cis people giving them the wrong idea.people are close-minded & cruel. I want to teach my kids imagination & compassion. I don't want cis people giving them the wrong idea.

Romeyroo · 03/06/2015 18:31

I tried googling cisman and cis-man once - nothing came up. The term cis woman is a lunacy and offensive. It takes my identity away.

Mintyy · 03/06/2015 18:33

"Tbh all this trans talk is making me want to turn Mumsnet off for good.

I couldn't give a shit about any of it."

Agreed, although I'm not going to lie down and accept being described as a ciswoman rather than just a woman.

What a colossally tedious place Mumsnet has become these days.

Shannaratiger · 03/06/2015 18:36

? don't understand everyone's issue with gender and names. Everyone starts off female (X) then at about 6 weeks Y chromosome kicks in changing brain and body male. Unfortunately as with anything it can go slightly wrong. Why should people have a problem with a person wanting to change their body to match their brain?
There brain should dictate their gender - or am I missing something? Hmm

Mintyy · 03/06/2015 18:39

Yes you are missing the point Shanna. Hermione's op makes it perfectly clear what this thread is about.

PolterGoose · 03/06/2015 18:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QueenBean · 03/06/2015 18:47

Totally agree - I hate the term cis

I hate that on the boards discussing trans issues, there are regularly people saying "I find cis offensive, please don't use it" and that gets ignored. It's baffling to expect respect in not using certain terms (ie he/she) but not giving it back by refusing to give up using the word cis