Would MNHQ consider extending the definition of "misgendering"

[HermioneWeasley]

Hi

I wondered what MNHQ and MNetters thought about extending misgendering to include referring to people as "cis"? There are many of us who find it offensive and reject it. Given that whenever it is used, there always at least one poster asking what it means, it seems unhelpful at best and offensive at worst.

Yes it's an awful term.

I am not a 'Cis woman' I am a woman. Nobody else should get to impose a term on me that I reject.

I can't speak for everyone but I find it offensive as its a label that is applied to me that I haven't consented to and is IMO wholly unnecessary.

It is also used frequently (within the niche group in which it is used) in an extremely derogatory and aggressive way - "die cis scum" being the seeming favourite given its frequency.

Thanks Hermione for the explanation, I think I have stepped on the wrong thread though as I am confused still I'm a bit thick So can I ask a stupid question? I am a Woman, Born Female, Are you saying that people class me as a ciswoman instead of what I am, A woman?

Why should it need clarification?

If you're a woman you're a woman. End of.

It being sometimes used in blogs as an insult doesn't make it offensive in all contexts. If it was people would have to be offended at a all sorts of words!

The idea that it describes someone who buys into gender identity stereotypes is interesting - that's not what I've taken from it, but understand how it could be viewed that way. Is there a term you prefer Darrell?

Cis is offensive to women who reject the concept of a female brain that can exist in a male body
A woman is a woman. A trans woman is a trans woman. I'm not about to 'misgender' a trans woman by calling her a man but I'm also not going to say she is a woman the same way that I am.
Women are women, and trans women are trans women. The prefix cis is unnecessary. It creates a category of woman that is a fiction, as if being cis and being trans are two equal ways of being a woman, which they are not.

Can anyone clarify what type of misgendering is banned on mumsnet please? Is it personal comments to individual trans posters such as 'you are a man not a woman' or calling celebs like Caitlin Jenner by her previous name or using the prefix he? Or saying he is a male person and a trans woman not a woman?

That's why trans activists want cis isn't it? Because it becomes ok to say CJ is not a cis woman but they don't like people saying CJ is not a woman. Although it's true.

I don't find it offensive, I'm perfectly comfortable with the word cis to mean "non-trans", doesn't bother me at all.

I don't see how you can reject that concept - it's clearly something that happens. That's like saying "gay" is offensive because you reject the idea that people can be in love with the same gender.

Babypythagorus - quite honestly, I'd just prefer 'female'.

How do trans people feel about female/male as descriptors? (Realising I don't know enough about this!)

I don't like the term cis. I did not ask for it, I don't consent to it and I disagree with it. I don't have a gender identity. Woman is fine on it's own.

But 'cis' isn't just a clarifying word - it means that the person described is happy with their 'assigned' gender; so if it's a woman, they presumably buy into all the ridiculous notions that tend to go hand in hand with being a woman. It also presumes that you have a gender identity in the first place, for your body to be 'cis' with.

I'm not sure I get why being born female, and growing up and having no issues with your body or your gender, and thus feeling comfortable that you are indeed a female, then means that you have bought into some ridiculous notions?

I am on the fence on this - I don't especially like it, but also don't think that it is offensive.

I also don't accept the theory that gender identity exists as distinct to a person's lived experience as a sexed person so I don't accept the concept that my gender identity matches my sexed body - my gender identity is a direct result of my lived experiences as a female infant, child, adolescent and adult.

I don't see how you can reject that concept - it's clearly something that happens

If you are referring to the concept of female brain in a male body no it's not clearly something that happens. People believing and feeling like their brain gender doesn't match their sex doesn't mean that's a scientific fact. It's their belief and their feelings, but there is no evidence that brains have a gender at all.

it describes someone who buys into gender identity stereotypes - this is better phrased. Is feeling comfortable with your body, your gender, your sex, is just buying into a stereotype?

See, I can't see the term cis as intrinsically offensive. But there's something about the idea that females who were born female and feel female and possibly use the term "woman" to describe themselves are just buying into a stereotype that is very uncomfortable to me.

And as polter points out above the concept of brain gender is massively harmful to women and feminists (and men too, and gender non confirming people, and trans people!!) and is rejected by many feminists. And scientists.

But I, and many other 'cis' women, do have issues with our 'gender' - but we don't decide this means we are not female. I hate the fact that, as a female, I am scared to walk home alone at night, that if I report a rape I will most likely be accused of lying, the fact that I am constantly told that I am too fat, too thin, too hairy, too spotty, too tall, too bloated, too bleedy to exist as I am, and must make haste to rectify these terrible things. I'm not saying that women who don't mind being called 'cis' buy into this, I'm saying the word 'cis' implies that they do.

That's really interesting PolterGoose - thank you for explaining that, it's not a view I'd heard but I can understand it. I too think gender is a social construct, but I don't necessarily think that terms which undermine or prevent our understanding of it as such are "offensive" - I'd probably describe them as unhelpful in that regard. Certainly, I wouldn't want terms banned for this reason - censorship rarely helps further any sort of productive discussion about anything

it means that the person described is happy with their 'assigned' gender; so if it's a woman, they presumably buy into all the ridiculous notions that tend to go hand in hand with being a woman.

so, I am a woman, born female. Why does that mean I have bought into anything? Why does that assume that there is a set of ridiculous notions that I must follow.

As a person I can choose to be or follow or buy into what I like, regardless of whether I am a woman, transwoman or man.

If the term ciswoman means I am restricted to a stereotype then yes it is offensive.
It feels like I am being put into a box.

Nina, there's no evidence that brains have a sexuality either, but we accept what people tell us about theirs, and don't claim that we can "reject" things they experience. Why is this any different?

Hang on, I thought "cis"woman meant someone who was born female and feels female, and has not questioned their gender/sex in the way that a trans male or female has?

Does it now mean someone who buys into whatever the current social identity of a woman in their country is?

Massively confused.

That was my understanding too, I think the idea that it means you buy into stereotypes is not necessarily widely accepted, though interesting.

I'm probably getting out of my depth here (happens often!) but I don't understand your post, Baby, sorry