Primary school admissions - MNHQ needs your thoughts!

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

We've been asked (in advance of primary school places allocation announcements in England, Wales and NI next week) for MNers' thoughts on the current systems for allocating primary places - so as ever we thought we'd come to you for your insights.

What do you think about how your LA allocates places? Have you found the process stressful? Do you think the difficulty/stress varies widely across the nation - and if so, which locations are particularly difficult and which are relatively stress-free? If you're in Scotland, where the system is different, do you think it works well (or not?) Would you support a change to the allocation system - and if so, how would you like to see it changed?

Any thoughts welcome. Best of luck to anyone waiting to hear about their child's place.

Yes siblings should get priority at application stage but ONLY if they still live in the catchment area. If not then, both/all children should move to their closest primary school and free up the space for local kids.

Primary schools are part of the local community they should be available to local kids regardless of faith. Local schools for local people.

It's easy to say there shouldn't be sibling priority until you're facing getting a sibling into a school.

DD just scraped into our local primary two years ago (which apart from a couple of faith schools that we don't qualify for is our nearest school), last year she wouldn't have got in. We haven't moved, the catchment just shrank to it's lowest ever, so there's a chance that DS wouldn't get in this year on distance alone. Luckily our council still apply the sibling link, which was introduced to put an end to the ridiculous situation of siblings being at different schools.

It's not our fault if there's been an influx of young families into the area or a baby boom so I will feel no guilt whatsoever if DS gets in ahead of a few children who live slightly closer.

No I can't, that's just the way it is I'm afraid. Children miss out on a place at their desired school for a number of reasons, ie distance, siblings, children who are above them for habinf medical/Sen needs, etc etc, so why just single out faith criteria?

Perhaps I'm missing something, but I've never understood the obsession with sibling priority. Surely the fairest way for it to be done is for places to be allocated according to distance to the school over having a sibling at the school? My two are two years apart and have never been at the same school, it's never been an issue.

Why should we pay for it though? It's like saying if you want your child to attend the only outstanding rated school in the town, whilst every other one is in special measures then you should have to pay for it, what rubbish. I contribute heavily like do all other parents to put children's school, YOU are not paying for it!

Except that isn't a good analogy, Twoplus3. If you lived next door to me in my block of flats, your child would get into the state primary school next door, and mine wouldn't, even though I pay taxes the same as you. We have the same aged children, pay the same council tax, etc, and yet yours is given preferential treatment (priority admission into a local state school) because of the faith you as his parent holds.

And because that state school is a faith school, no other state schools are going to be built nearby, so my DS has to travel out of borough to find a non-faith school with places to take him. He has a 40-minute journey to his primary school, and all his mates live a long way away, and it makes my working life difficult, while your DC of the same age would simply walk next door to his state school. All because you are a Catholic and I am not.

This is discrimination.

and why shouldn't you pay for a child to go to a specialist RC school when only 7% or people in England and Wales are catholic. There are a lot more muslims in the UK - are you happy to subsidise muslim-only schools as well?

But lots of parents would see it as an issue, a big issue, to have two of their primary aged children at two separate schools, especially if they work, don't drive etc.

I've done six applications in total (primary, secondary and a house move for two children) and each time just put the nearest school to where we lived and got it without any fuss.

To be honest I don't know how else they could Allocate places. Keeping siblings together is a good idea in schools IMO, giving people a place in their nearest school is also good.

I have applied for 2 schools in catchment and one outside. None are particularly outstanding but I think parents should consider applying to their catchment schools instead of trying to get into 'better' schools or doing that pretending they are religious to get into the faith school thing which, as an Atheist, I think is wrong. I am surprised by the amount of friends I have who suddenly start going to church.

What I do object really strongly to is the way areas like the one I live in are given extra spaces by creating more classes in existing schools while in the 'better' areas they build completely new schools.

I have not tried to get into any of the 'Better' schools because I know I do not stand a hope in hell of getting my son in any of them and I have seen people only put down one out of catchment school and then end up with a school miles away that they would never have considered.

Put your kids in the local school if you can, make the change at a local level.

It still varies a lot depending on the schools you apply to.

Many of the finest schools you sadly need to develop a religion for. This needs to change IMO and is nothing to do with the LA rules.

We are so pleased with the school we have but it was a miracle we got it as we joined a waiting list at exactly the right moment. It is a church school but prioritises on distance. I am actually really liking having a bit more spirituality in my life and the kids like singing the hymns too.

Selection by faith caused us problems as my DC are not Christian and most of the nearby primaries are. It was a wider problem because the demographic of the area has changed over the years so having 3 faith based primaries and 2 community schools seems to have created an unrepresentative mix in both schools i.e. an over representation of EAL and FSM in the community schools and an under representation in the faith schools.

(We had the luxury of opting out and going private but most of our friends don't have that choice.)

But the thing is though lots of parents wont just put the nearest school just because it's easier for them, as there closest school might be failing, so they'll opt for a school further away that is better. This is what I did anyway, all the schools here are rubbish and I refused to even put them down as a choice, I opted for one that is 3 miles away and luckily this is the one we got, if we hadn't of got this school then I'd of home schooled until we got a place.

It depends where you live and how long ago you applied Clayhead. There was a lot less pressure on primary places 10 years ago then there is now for example.

Was just giving my experience! Thought that was what the thread was for...

One application was this year, four were in previous three years.

I've done school admissions 7 times now, in Scotland and in England.

1st time: standard admissions for P1 (in Scotland). Super easy. I knew which school I lived in the catchment for, made an appointment during the standard window and filled in the forms with the deputy HT (who had been my P4 teacher as it was my primary school).

2nd time: in-year admission during P1. We moved to another city so DS1 needed a new school. It was simply a case of phoning schools, finding out which ones had places in P1 and choosing one. Fairly straightforward, although as with all in-year things it very much depends on where there are places.

3rd time: in-year admission moving to England. Was ok because we moved to an area where the schools mostly had places. Main problem was the utter inflexibility of the bloody system and the awfulness of the supposedly outstanding school he went to. DS1 (June birthday) went from P3 to Y3, but the school made absolutely no allowance for the fact that's he's essentially gone up a year. And the school were generally awful, but that's not the fault of the admissions system.

4th time: in-year admission for the start of Y6 because we moved to another area. This was more stressful mostly because the system refuses to allow you to apply for a place unless you're already living in the city. But you actually want to know where your child can go to school so you can make sure that you live nearby. DS1 managed to get a place in the (then) unpopular middle school in the area we moved to, but it was a very long walk from out house (past both other middle schools).

5th time: standard admissions cycle for admission to high school (Y9). Really simple. The LA has a feeder system so we were pretty much guaranteed a place (barring an absolutely huge influx of looked after children or children with statements who hadn't already had places at the feeder school with the same specialist unit - both unlikely scenarios). We'd also recently moved house and the high school his middle school feeds to is at the end of our street.

6th time: standard admissions cycle for reception for DS2 (same year as the 5th time, but it starts a couple of months later). This is more-or-less stressful depending on where you actually live because there are several 'black holes' in the local area for admission to first school. We had been aware of this when we bought our house. Where we live gives us genuinely realistic choices of first and primary schools (more than we can actually apply for), but there are several other places where there is no choice or even no guarantee of a place in a local school at all. That's just stupid.

We got our first choice (as we knew we would), but several friends ended up with their 3rd or 4th choice, which feeds to a secondary that's a long way away and bloody awkward to get to. So the feeder system is greats once you're in; not so much when getting in to first or primary school is difficult.

7th time: our (ofsted outstanding) local high school is horrible, and DS1 hated it so he wanted to go to a new free school which was doing its own admissions (it now goes through the LA system, but didn't last year). Really easy. Filled in a form online. Met with HT to talk about whether it was the school for DS1 (not an actual interview, just a chat because it's quite specialist and lots of kids would hate it). Got a Y10 place (they only take from Y10). All good and he loves it.

I didn't drive when mine were in primary- I think I learnt when DD was in year 8, around then. DS walked to school with a neighbour with a DC in the year above and I walked with DD to school, returned the favour by taking the neighbour's DC to dancing when she and DD were there at the same time. DS walked by himself in year 6 when the neighbour's DC left the school and they both sorted themselves out at secondary. We also could have done one parent dropping each off, used breakfast club for one and after school club for the other, etc. There are lots of ways around it.

A church school I know of in London recently had to change it's somewhat dubious admissions criteria for church involvement as they were considered to be far too wishy washy. On their recent charity drives they were asking parents to donate 'a week at their holiday home' as a prize in the raffle. You can tell exactly what is going on here. Interestingly hardly any of the school leavers go on to a church secondary although there is one very closeby.

The LA allows the building of new estates, the expansion of the town is planned 5-10 or more years in advance, yet only builds new schools responsively. How could they have been taken by surprise when they started running out of school places? We have families in this area with dc at 3 different primaries. One family I know lives 10mins walk from their nearest primary, where their dc1 goes. But they are out of catchment for that school, so dc2 goes to their catchment school, 45mins walk away. But they are on the very verge of the catchment, so did not get a space for dc3, who has to go to a third school. Is that not ridiculous?

What difference does that make, though, Twoplus3? The point is, whatever school you are going for, if it is a faith school and parents who pay the same taxes, are the same distance as you, whatever, except are not Catholic - your kids get priority and theirs don't.

You can make all the excuses you like, but it's still discrimination. I'm on job panels - if I put a candidate to the bottom of the "to be hired" pile just because they were a different faith from me (say, if they were Catholic), I would be prosecuted, and rightly so.

Oh yes, I do want a change in the allocation system: I want OOC siblings prioritised over catchment, unless the families have moved further away from the school since elder siblings got in.

But the faith criteria isn't fair because it gives preference on something that is out of people's control, I can't change my faith just to get into a school?

Would it be fair if there was a criteria to say that chikdren who's parents support Everton should get preference? Or preference to children with a certain eye colour? Why is it fair for a system to discriminate based on religion? Why should I get less choice in schools than Catholics locally?

Faith offers additional choices in education. As money does.

Those with no money and no religion have fewer choices.

It is such a nightmare.

One of my biggest issues is faith schools. I really don't think it's right that people of no faith, or another faith, can end up forced to have their child at a CofE or Catholic school due to the randomness of admissions. Round by me, one of the worst performing schools (the one everyone gets if you don't get any of your choices) is Catholic. So if you don't get any of your choices, your child gets taught in line with a religion you may not practice. It also penalises those who have to relocate basically at any time during their child's babyhood/pre school years where admission is based on attendance.

Another big issue is the way effective catchments give some people a lovely choice of schools, and leave others in a black hole.

On top of which, the confusion of different areas using different systems feeds into people messing up the form.

Faith schools are a massive anachronism. The time of segregation on the basis of religion has passed, to continue it, particularly in a way where those with a particular faith have more options than those with no faith is simply wrong and causes a great deal of anxiety for parents in the admissions process.