Primary school admissions - MNHQ needs your thoughts!

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

We've been asked (in advance of primary school places allocation announcements in England, Wales and NI next week) for MNers' thoughts on the current systems for allocating primary places - so as ever we thought we'd come to you for your insights.

What do you think about how your LA allocates places? Have you found the process stressful? Do you think the difficulty/stress varies widely across the nation - and if so, which locations are particularly difficult and which are relatively stress-free? If you're in Scotland, where the system is different, do you think it works well (or not?) Would you support a change to the allocation system - and if so, how would you like to see it changed?

Any thoughts welcome. Best of luck to anyone waiting to hear about their child's place.

Agree with the unfairness of the system which bars non-believers (or those who don't believe in exactly the same thing) from faith schools.

But for me, what is 'wrong' with faith schools (going back to someone's Q on first page of thread) the answer is - the fact that they teach (what I regard as) a load of nonsense and indoctrination to young, spongy brains before they are able to filter and decide whether they want to accept it all. Divisive too. A form of child abuse, some might argue (ducks for cover).

Incidentally, brilliantly expressed upthread ArcherAnnie.

Sorry, when I said the private system was irrelevant I meant that using private school admission hinging on income as an argument for Catholic state school admission to hinge on religion is irrelevant given that the state system is a guaranteed school place for all children and the private is just that, private. Not sure I've worded that particularly well, but you get what I mean! I completely agree about the private system acting as a safety net for the council, my DD ended up going privately because she was offered a place at a failing school miles away, despite her brother being at our local Catholic primary. Having them at two different schools was perfectly doable.

tiggytape - no problem. I wasn't tryiny to say that everyone shared my experience but try to illustrate that we all live in the UK and have had such massively difference experiences. No one round here talks about it because it's just not an issue and so mumsnet is useful for me to see how people who live in other parts of the UK are affected.

Tiggy - I totally agree with that. I just can't see any slack coming back into the system any time soon. Especially with what you've just written about opening new schools. So the issue of faith schools is going to continue to be incredibly fraught.

I totally agree with the poster who said that LA's school be required to work with developers so that new housing = new school places

Now like I said before I'm not suggesting people feign religion or get their child baptised just to secure a place at a good school. But if it came to choosing from a failing school on your doorstep or a faith school that still had places available for non faith children, which would you chose? I'm of the faith anyway so it doesn't matter but I can honestly say hand on heart if I weren't Catholic I would still opt for a better Catholic school (if a place were available) that would offer my children better opportunities and prospects over a non faith school that was failing.

But the admission policy for faith schools make it unfair because if you don't have the faith then your child misses out. It's wrong.

The whole thing just irritates me greatly - all the time and worry everyone in crowded areas is now having to put in, posting on threads, lobbying MPs, wondering whether to take a punt on brand new free schools, thinking about moving house, saving up for a plan B, just to sort out something taxes are supposed to pay for!

Faith school should be abolished and all schools should be secular. The possibility that a child is not eligible to go to a state school because of their parents religion is ridiculous.

if I weren't Catholic I would still opt for a better Catholic school

Around here, if you weren't Catholic, it wouldn't matter a damn what you opted for because none of the Catholic state schools would let you in. None of them. You don't seem to grasp this.

Twoplus I agree it would be very tempting. I would find it hard not to make the same decision, but I would still be railing at the system and working hard to unpick much of what had been absorbed during the day once DCs came home! If I found myself in that position I think I'd have to move actually. Am very fortunate that it hasn't come to that. The reality is that many (most?) choose faith schools because they are often 'better'. But if people are honest about what that 'better' means - it is about cohort, social class, fewer 'undesirables' etc. Wrong and unpalatable, yes. But true all the same. That is why behaviour/grades tend to be better. So people will feign religion - often allowing their DCs to be taught things they strongly disagree with - just to make sure they are in a preferable 'educational environment'. Whichever way you look at it the system is totally screwed up.

Our local schools' admissions policies do prioritise LAC/medical etc. then siblings in catchment, catchment pupils, then siblings out of catchment. However if a sibling was allocated the school (and is out of catchment) then it counts as a sibling in catchment. It works, but we don't have the same pressure on school places as some parts of the country, (at the moment - likely to change though with amount of houses planned!) But it does stop people buying houses in catchment for a few years to get into a school and then moving out of catchment once they've secured the school of their choice for their DC unless they are prepared to risk not getting in. Luckily there aren't many faith schools and faith comes down admissions criteria.

How is it not an issue to have siblings at different schools? Round here all schools start and finish at the same time - how could I collect dc from 2 places at one time? Different inset days etc. It would be a massive pain plus here families get involved in school life - real school family feel. How can you get that if you're split between schools. some really odd opinions on here.

The idea of opting for a good faith school if you are not of the faith would be a total joke in most areas. One good CofE school near me regularly has 1-2 places to allocate on distance to non religion non siblings

There needs to be flexibility around starting times, so many other countries have some degree of choice over delaying start if need be , but here in the UK we penalise children who start school on time, by threatening a year one start.

Summerborns should be given an automatic right to reception if they choose not to start early.

My son is not emotionally ready to start this September, he's 4 in June so eligible but not technically compulsory school age until September 2016. I was shocked when I found out the hoops we have to jump through to make starting at compulsory school age a possibility without threats of having to skip reception.
In Australia you can hold back your child's start completely on the wishes of the parents, Scotland have a flexible system and so do many countries, yet here in England its a right debacle.

our catchment school was below standard (requires improvement at last ofsted), they were poorly administered, not getting back to me with information, and had no idea that we were actually in their catchment area.

we did get into a faith school which was more appropriate for the needs of the children. (better now they have a new ht)

having faith worked for us but other people living here would be stuffed if of no faith. there are no other nearby schools, as not so long ago there were very few people living in the inner city. there is a local catholic school that accepts children from different faiths.

motherofdragons I explained upthread how I did it. And how I else I could have done it. They both always had a parent at sports day, school production etc, because they were rarely on the same day! If anything it was easier than having to split my time at each school event between both of them. Yes it would have been more convenient to walk them both to school together, but having them separate really wasn't a problem. They are 19 and 17 now and lived to tell the tale!

Where I live it all seems so secretive, I was given a catchment map by a neighbour who herself had been given it by another neighbour, finding one online or getting one from the LA was near on impossible... Most schools where I am are oversubscribed, and I spent months going back and forth with the LA asking for distances of last admitted pupils and the number of siblings previously given places etc, this so I could list the schools we might best have a shot at getting in..they have this information so why can't it be made more easily available? I also wish we could be told how many siblings a school is expecting to have applying, as that information would of meant me excluding certain schools from my list as I would of known I would'nt stand a chance of getting in...

I had a similar experience to CalamitouslyWrongs. When we were trying to work out where to move to in the UK from overseas I thought it sensible to check with various local school and LEAs (not sure if that's the right term, the local education Authorities). I was stunned when some LEAs (?) and schools refused to even talk to us UNLESS we actually lived in the area. It was unhelpful to say the least.

Fortuanately it all worked out brilliantly - largely thanks to a very helpful LEA officer who was sympathetic to our situation - and we moved to a town with a great comprehensive five minutes from the house. We ended up with places for all of them.

Twoplus3
You don't have a choice if you aren't a member of the faith because you are right at the bottom of the admissions list. Once foundation / faith places and siblings are allocated, how many places do you think are left?
Nearest Catholic primary = none out of 42
Nearest 2 CofE primary = 14 out of 60

And this was a good year some years its been as low 1-3 community places after siblings.

So out of 102 school places 14 went to children from the local community who didn't satisfy the faith criteria (3 open places went to siblings).

This is in an area where, according to the census, only around 45% of the population identify as Christian.

I am in London (zone 3). There are 12 state primary schools within 1 mile of my house. 4 of those are faith schools, and the primary entry criteria is by faith - for either all places, or the majority of places. We wouldn't be eligible for any of them.

Theoretically I can choose between the 8 others. Realistically, we put our nearest school as first choice - and didn't get it. It has an approx 200m catchment area and we are 300m away. There is a bunch of cars outside dropping kids off every day, due the to tendency to rent a house near it at the right time and then move. We got the 2nd nearest. Based on catchment the year we applied, we wouldn't have got 3rd nearest, or 4th nearest.

I love my kids school, as do they. But the illusion of choice is just that - an illusion.

I think faith schools should, at a maximum, be allowed to choose applicants based on £ contribution. So if the state are contributing 80% of the money, and the church 20% - they can pick 20% of the pupils based on faith. I don't even love this tbh, but recognise that where churches own buildings etc the state can't necessarily afford to buy them outright.

That is pretty much what happened to us Tiggy. We love the school we got, but it wasn't our closest and it isn't where neighbours' children go.

Tiggytape, I agree with you in that a lot of issues with school places is that Local Authorities are not building enough schools to cover places needed.
As I have said (twice) I can see it from others point of view, if I were not catholic I probably would find the school admission process unfair, my point is, whenever the subject of "overcrowded schools" comes up, everyone jumps on "it's all down to the Catholic schools"
There are plenty of other faiths that have state funded schools with a faith criteria.
My other point is you would find that very well performing Catholic school next to your house would probably not be quite so good once the religious aspect has been taken away.
As previously stated, it is not a coincidence that faith schools tend to do better.

There are plenty of other faiths that have state funded schools with a faith criteria.

The reason I bang on about Catholic schools is because they dominate our local school system, and all of the local Catholic faith schools, both primary and secondary, are 100% Catholic, with no possibility of any non-Catholic admissions. To compare. the one CofE secondary school reserves only 50% of places for CofE admissions - the other 50% is solely on catchment, etc.

If most of my local schools were 100% Muslim-only, or 100% Hindu-only, or whatever, I'd be just as cross.