OFFICIAL MNHQ THREAD on posts about suicide, troll-hunting and related matters

[RowanMumsnet]

Hello

There have been so many threads about this over the past few days, and so many divergent points of view - and so much upset - that we'd really like to have the discussion in one place rather than in many different threads all over the boards.

For those who haven't heard yet: we are actively reviewing our policy about threads regarding suicidal feelings and suicidal intent. We are seeking expert input from outside organisations including the Samaritans. Once we have that we will come back and have a further discussion with MNers about the way forward.

We'll be here to talk on the thread throughout the day, but do please note that we WILL delete troll-hunting posts for all the obvious reasons. So PLEASE do not use this thread to make insinuations about identifiable posters - keep it general please.

Re: Wombat: we understand that some reporters had concerns, but at the same time this poster had been around for years with a very consistent posting history. We absolutely do not have any concrete reason to disbelieve her. However, her thread had been immensely upsetting and triggering for many users, and has prompted a site-wide discussion about how we handle these threads. Once her husband had posted that she was at home with him and under the care of RL professionals it really seemed best all round to delete the thread.

We contacted Wombat at the time to explain our deletion and we still feel that for many very good reasons this is best sorted out off-board between us and her; we've asked her again to reply to our email and we will happily take it from there.

We also think that this whole case is a very good illustration of why we have no-trollhunting rules. We understand that some of you find them frustrating, but for every correct troll-call, there's an incorrect one. Being called a troll in public when you're giving an honest account of deeply upsetting real-life circumstances can be devastating for people.

Equally, we do 'get' that there are a lot posters and threads at the moment that seem deeply suspicious. We are on the front foot with this and have been being pretty pro-active at closing things down when they are reported to us and when we can see that things aren't adding up, particularly if they are new users.

So we need you to keep reporting and NOT break troll-hunting rules on the boards unless MNHQ itself has said publicly that we are confident that someone was a deliberate trouble-maker.

The namechange/sock-puppeting thing is extremely easy for us to spot when it's reported. It's not a judgement call - it's black and white and it's the work of a moment for us to spot it and deal with it.

I think about 3 weeks is the ideal, Pacific.

Bog, no one calls you a troll because troll hunting isn't allowed but secretly we all know you are well dodgy.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine Thu 23-Oct-14 11:07:06
Does MN get a lot of suicide threads? If so is there any way MNHQ could liaise with Samaritans to offer on thread support by a trained Samaritans volunteer with other users locked out, and the thread hidden to all but the OP and Samaritans bod?

That's the most sensible suggestion of this thread.

I also think that not doing something about the actively suicidal threads as a matter of urgency is a very dangerous situation.Very often on those threads,I see recognisable names (so yes,that means the more frequent posters) expressing cynical remarks about trolling,which then encourages others to hop on board with in-jokes and similarly cynical remarks.It's nasty to watch.

And ironically,those comments are very often made by people who really seem to spend far more of their day/evening posting on an internet site than they seem to spend on enjoying their own real life.Which leads me to believe they possibly aren't the healthiest people to be passing judgement in the first place.If they genuinely believe it's a troll,they are around enough to know how to hit 'report post' and not just hop onto the thread to get 'involved' in it.

I've been called a troll and a cunt.

I dunno what to make of that.

Actually I don't think there's many names I've not been called in 8 years

I think there's sometimes a lack of understanding about the way different members use mn.

A huge proportion mainly lurk. That's where a lot of the long-termer criticism comes from. The lurkers read but don't post. So, they get what they see as a measure of posters, feel a part of what's going on, but are not actually a playing part. That's why some of the seemingly ordinary AIBU threads get hundreds of posts. Because the lurkers feel they can get involved in something on MN, but it's pretty much inconsequential and there's a momentum that they can dip their toe in as part of a fast moving thread with no risk of standing out. Feels a bit exciting, though. Like they're part of something. Those are some of the buttons the emotional trolls press.

But, those lurkers feel as tied to mn as the long term posters do. There are plenty who read and never post. Remember how many people came out of the woodwork in the great fwr board wars a while ago. They didn't post then and don't now. They still read, though.

Like I said, forum dynamics are fascinating.

Oh good. I feel accepted now.

Well I never post on suicide threads, so I don't think I need to get a life.

I've never been called a troll OR a cunt - is it because I is boring?
But yes, I do spend far too much time on here and should not be trusted

Forum dynamics are fascinating - but I find any larger group of people have interesting interaction that are more often than not entirely rational and depend on so many things, not all of which are obvious.

People get 'trolled' in RL all the time - spam e-mails, "You have won the lottery - phone this number NOW to claim your prize" etc - and many people fall prey to these. Quite rightly there are rules against these aka The Law, although many fraudsters don't get caught or prosecuted or convicted of any criminal offence.

I think it's part of life tbh: nice people, bad people and most of us somewhere in the middle striving to be like the nice people. Or is that just me?

Just wanted to refer to the point pacificdogwoodmade up thread, and although I agree that everybody has their own triggers/topics they want to avoid, I do feel suicide notes being posted on here fall into a category of their own.

MNers may have been affected by miscarriage/DV/rape but when someone posts about it, you can't change the fact it's happened but you can give advice/support if you choose to or hide the thread if it's too painful.

The guilt that bereaved relatives are left with following a loved ones suicide makes it very hard to ignore a suicide threat. 'You couldn't save yours, can you make a difference here' kind of reasoning.

I'm waffling a bit because I'm tired, but hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Wombat I admire your resilience.

I'm one of the lurkers, though I do post on mental health a bit, and have had lots of support on there. I posted when I was really unwell, and that encouraged me to get help.

I did get a bit too unwell to post though at one point, and put a few triggering things and a method on the board because I wasn't in a very good place at all.

That said, there were posters who thought I wasn't genuine, and then deliberately wound me up into even more of a state. I deleted my account and set up a new one because of it- making it look even worse, but I didn't know the rules/ about trolls then!

So I think mental health is like any other place on mumsnet: people post what they think is reasonable, sometimes it is, sometimes it upsets people, sometimes people fall out, sometimes they make good friendships. In the main, people support one another.

There are live DV and birth threads where support is given and the same worries apply, so I think suicide threads should be allowed to stay.

I'm on a thread at the minute where a lady posted saying she'd made an attempt on her life and thanks to the support on here, went to hospital and is now getting support.

That said, because I had a bad experience, I tend not to post much now and just read. If you are unwell, mumsnet can be a scary place- but that is the risk you take in posting. Just move the threads to mental health with a trigger warning and appropiate links for the poster when it's flagged up. Also remove details of methods, but let the rest stay.

Or better still, if HQ ARE taking advice then there's really no need to start a huge debate dragging everything up. Take the advice, post it and stop stirring it all up more in my honest view.

I've recently ncd after about 4yrs with one, much loved (by me) name. I did it because it's highly possible one of my dc will look at MN, will guess from the name and details about life, pets etc that it's me. If they were nosy enough to do a search they would find comments about their father, my ex, that I don't think it's appropriate they see. I have used MN to vent. I have become wary again of posting anything on a controversial thread because, like others have said, being accused of being a troll or sock puppet really can feel like being bullied, especially here when it can be sustained and done by a 'gang'.

It happend to me when I first joined and made the newbie mistake of supporting an unpopular OP simply by saying I understood what she was trying to say. In my naïveté I thought people were having a go at her because they didn't quite get what she was saying . The troll hunters on that thread tore into both of us, believing I was the OPs sock puppet. Not nice, but I've been around the internet since the early 90's (Pre-web) so shook the dust from my sandles and registered with a new ID

Troll hunting on thread is poison to any forum - I saw it tear apart a fan forum, it's not just MN. The only change re. Trolls and troll hunting I would like to see is stronger management of anyone who troll hunts on thread. It doesn't matter if you're right or not, report and let MNHQ deal with it. Seeing the troll hunting does put people off asking for advice and that needs to be stopped. Don't make out you're defending the vulnerable, it's a vigilante culture among some people on here and it's ugly.

As for my views on the suicide threads - simply find out from the experts in the field (MIND, Samaritans etc) what is the best practice and then implement it. It doesn't matter what anyone wants to happen, or 99% of users want x or y - there is no perfect solution - just implement best practice and stop agonising about it.

It's happened to pretty much all of us, Dinglethdragon. It would help if people knew it wasn't personal.

'As for my views on the suicide threads - simply find out from the experts in the field (MIND, Samaritans etc) what is the best practice and then implement it. It doesn't matter what anyone wants to happen, or 99% of users want x or y - there is no perfect solution - just implement best practice and stop agonising about it.'

Excellent point ,well made Dinglethedragon

Quite shocked at the posts saying this is a parenting site not a mh site. The two can and do exist together. It's like saying it's a parenting site and not a cancer site.

Seeing the trolls get away with it time and time again puts people off.

Nobody prescribes medication on here for cancer patients though,they regularly 'prescribe' treatments/advice/theories for mental health sufferers.

What does it matter if an OP is a troll? If people respond with honest and helpful replies then the thread will benefit others who are reading anyway. If an Op is dodgy and people are investing too much in a thread then MNHQs timely interventions of "don't invest more than you can afford to give" will be triggered by people REPORTING it rather than making snide comments on thread. I will repeat (it's late and I'm tired) it's the vigilante gangs that are a bigger problem.

Great post, Dinglethdragon. Couldn't agree more.

Nope I disagree, It's the trolls who are the problem.

The defense of trolls on MN is bizarre.

I've seen trolls do far more damage to forums than your imaginary vigilante gangs.

Let them troll to their hearts content then.

Fuck the posters they upset.

I'm out of this thread.

No-one is defending trolls - you're setting up a straw man. Ignore if you think they are trolls -don't give them the attention - why would you feed a troll ? That's bizarre ! People who think a poster is genuine will post helpful replies, those who think its a troll will report.if enough people report MNHQ will post a reminder, if they agree that it's a troll they will pull the thread. It's a good system if people use it - the problem is I think the troll hunters actually like the drama they create by their cryptic messages and snide comments.

You don't think telling your sad stories to trolls is feeding them? You don't think that PMing them with your phone no is feeding them?

That's what they want.

You are giving them what they want.

I get that you think troll hunting is worse, I disagree.

I'd be inclined to trust MNHQ on what feeds trolls. They are up to date with how forums like this work, they exchange best practice with the HQs of other similar forums, they know the latest research. Facts and all that.

What the Talk Guidelines say:

"If you suspect someone of being a troll, please don't trollhunt (accuse them publicly on the discussion thread). If you're wrong, you could cause untold hurt; if you're right, you'll merely be giving them the kind of attention they're after."