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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ Racism policy

337 replies

ThePigOfHappiness · 31/12/2013 15:17

Hi,
I was just wondering if you could let us know when the racism policy has been amended? I'm sure following today's discussions on NI that it needs to be looked at.
It's clearly breaking the equality act to discriminate based on nationality as it is racist, yet MNHQ don't acknowledge this?
Ta

OP posts:
wigglesrock · 10/01/2014 16:13

I don't really understand the word for the trees comment, so there were lots of reports about the initial thread but that didn't mean enough people were offended by it or was the reporting not clear enough. I think it's quite fair to say that MNHQ wet their pants a bit because the thread was started to goad NI posters, I still am not clear why second opinions had to be taken in MNHQ as to whether it was offensive?.

I'll be honest & I understand that people have been on holiday (although most people I know get 3 days off over Christmas & New Year unless they work in the education sector) but I feel that had it been any other posters complaining it would have been dealt with quicker.

And I still don't understand what the initial deletion message thought it was going to achieve?

wigglesrock · 10/01/2014 16:14

wood for the trees not word for the trees.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 16:30

I agree with you wiggles. I think 11 days for what was expected to be a much discussed and thought out response is awful.

Had this been about another nation (Polish people for example) the response would have been very different and far more immediate and clear. As it is, irish 'jokes' are so commonplace on MN that HQ were probably quite confused about why it was an issue and whether it actually was one or not.

JinglingRexManningDay · 10/01/2014 16:42

Actually the use of Beyond the Pale in the Talk Guidelines dates back to English rule in Ireland when anything outside an area surrounding Dublin (known asThe Pale) was thought to be inferior and uncivilized.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 16:47

Really jingling? I had always wondered what 'the pale' was but that is very good to know. I wonder if there is somewhere that can be verified so that HQ could make an informed decision on the use of that phrase.

JinglingRexManningDay · 10/01/2014 17:18

Yes.
Google The Pale Ireland.

wannabedomesticgoddess · 10/01/2014 18:11

I had a reply typed out but I just feel like there's no point posting what I want to say.

Fuck it. Whatever.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 18:29

Yep- i know how you feel.

figrus · 10/01/2014 19:20

Hq's conclusion is as clear as mud....

BrandNewIggi · 10/01/2014 19:40

Well I guess we have to wait for the next NI themed thread to see if this has made a damned bit of difference... I'm guessing not. I guess we just can't take a joke Hmm

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 10/01/2014 19:43

Or the next Scottish independence thread....

MNHQ lets some truly shitty stuff stand on those

Pan · 10/01/2014 22:48

tbh I think Justine was as clear as she could be. Not the crystal clear I'd wish but I'm taking it as a correction from previous stated views, a recognition that national identity IS a source of possible unpleasantness from others (and will be deleted as and when) but also a desire to not turn the site into a Nethuns, and an apology re this particular issue.

For me at least I'm taking it all in good faith and intent, and the relevant threads have been informative for a few posters who obv type better than they think.

BackOnlyBriefly · 11/01/2014 14:40

I've never associated 'Beyond the Pale' with Ireland. Will people have to research it in order to know to be offended by it?

ThePigOfHappiness · 12/01/2014 11:02

Justine, are you really saying that even if a joke had racist connotations that HQ will let it stand because humour is different to malice? Really? Do you not understand that is a key way to further racist beliefs and stereotypes in an underhand way?
Look you know best, this has just handled all wrong.

OP posts:
BrandNewIggi · 12/01/2014 13:21

This makes me think of Allport's scale of prejudice, with no.1 being as the definition below, and 5 being extermination Sad

. Antilocution: Antilocution means a majority group freely make jokes about a minority group. Speech is in terms of negative stereotypes and negative images.[2] This is also called hate speech.[3] It is commonly seen as harmless by the majority. Antilocution itself may not be harmful, but it sets the stage for more severe outlets for prejudice (see also ethnic joke).

BackOnlyBriefly · 12/01/2014 22:57

Ah 'the thin end of the wedge'.

There should be 6 levels on the scale. The 0th one would be "allowing people to talk at all can lead to people saying bad things and eventually to genocide"

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 12/01/2014 23:01

You sound as if you are only on this thread to goad people backonlybriefly

BrandNewIggi · 12/01/2014 23:09

Backonlybriefly I think you will find the law is on the side of those who object to hate speech, so I don't think your view carries that much weight, outside of the DM possibly.

BackOnlyBriefly · 12/01/2014 23:23

Report me and have me banned then. That would be in the spirit of the thread wouldn't it.

I happen to think if you ban everything that someone doesn't like you'll end up with an empty site. I believe in free speech even if it makes some people uncomfortable. Even if it makes me uncomfortable.

I've never reported a post no matter what anyone has said to me. I can take it, and when someone says something 'unacceptable' in our society I love to see a rush of people posting to say it is and why it is. I think that's how we stamp out certain attitudes.

Even if the particular poster doesn't learn from the experience I believe others with similar opinions will realise how the rest of us feel about it and how little support they really have.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 12/01/2014 23:28

Have i reported you? Did i say i was going to or that i should?

You are telling me to do something that you disagree with without any indication that thats what i intended to do so you can prove a point.

People are doing exactly what you say you do- telling you what is wrong with your comments. You say thats why you love but are telling me to report you instead of doing the thing that you think should be done which i was already doing.

BrandNewIggi · 12/01/2014 23:53

Why would you be deleted, or banned? Confused You haven't said anything racist or sexist that I can see? And mumsnet don't delete for stupidity, we've already been told that Wink

JinglingRexManningDay · 13/01/2014 10:21

The pale was taught in primary school history in Irelandso no, most Irish people would not have to Google.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 13/01/2014 19:40

Have HQ declared this thread dealt with? I dont feel it's been resolved properly and would like answers to the posts since justines post.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 15/01/2014 10:28

Interesting that HQ will edit a thread title to save some people from knowing what is happening on a tv show but wont do it to save further people from being offended by national stereotypes!

And have we to wait another 10 days to get a follow up response to these questions?

Do we have to report this thread everytime we post just to et the attention it should already be getting?

SarahMumsnet · 15/01/2014 16:18

Hey everyone,

To respond further to the questions around jokes - as Justine said earlier, things do become a bit more complicated in this area, because in order not to delete every reference to a country that made mention of national characteristics/accents, we need to be able to use our judgment. There's a difference between someone, say, aping a French accent, because of France's position in the world, and someone aping the accent or characteristics of a country that's historically been oppressed or exploited.

Specifically in terms of Ireland, we can see a distinction between jokes of the "Englishman, Irishman, Scotsman" variety, which are built around a denigration of Ireland, and the 'top of the morning to you!' thread title from earlier this month, which was referencing a colloquialism in a value-neutral way (as was clear from the fact that the OP was heading to Dublin and excited about what she might get up to there). An equivalent example might be if someone were to start a thread entitled "Why aye, man! Gannin doon the Toon; what should ah dee when ah'm there?". I realise the north-east is a region rather than a city, and therefore not protected under the Equality Act, but it's certainly experienced its share of social and economic disadvantage relative to the UK over the years. And as a Geordie, I might think to myself "oy, we don't all talk like that, you know" - but I wouldn't (and don't think anyone else would) argue that it ought to be deleted.

All of which is to say that I think we need to retain the ability to judge reports of this sort of thing on a case by case basis; a blanket rule could back us into a bit of a corner. We absolutely agree, however, that national prejudices exist, and we'll bear that in mind when looking at relevant reports.

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