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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

MNHQ Racism policy

337 replies

ThePigOfHappiness · 31/12/2013 15:17

Hi,
I was just wondering if you could let us know when the racism policy has been amended? I'm sure following today's discussions on NI that it needs to be looked at.
It's clearly breaking the equality act to discriminate based on nationality as it is racist, yet MNHQ don't acknowledge this?
Ta

OP posts:
Pan · 08/01/2014 20:31

Nice try. I'll report a post I made on another thread about the English which was awful and I am deeply ashamed of....... and ask them to have a look over here.

squoosh · 08/01/2014 20:35

Thanks BookroomRed, apologies for misinterpreting your initial post.

Re. Orson Welles and Radio 4, yes, you’re probably right, or if they did air clips in relation to another country, it would probably be done after much discussion and with the expectation of garnering a lot of negative publicity. The fact though that it was recorded in the 40’s or 50’s or thereabouts (I’m assuming) does give an historical edge to the opinions that distances it somewhat from being seen as inflammatory. It would be different if they had say, Phlilip Seymour Hoffman for example saying similar. Also I’d imagine Radio 4 would be generally confident about another nation being discussed as long as the country in question was a largely white one and the opinions were written/recorded a comfortable enough distance ago time wise.

I know the UK/USA thing is different as in the main being Irish in America isn’t seen as a handicap, quite the opposite, as demonstrated by the politicians you refer to desperate to find an Irish ancestor no matter how tenuous the link. The Irish American chunk of the electorate and political world are seen as someone that it's beneficial to get on side.

Anyway, my point is that Oirishism doesn’t exist in a vacuum, every country in the world suffers hackneyed cultural stereotypes, some of them harmful, some of them like today’s, that I see as cheesy but harmless. What I would say is that the casual racism demonstrated on Mumsnet towards America and Americans is far more evident to me than anti Irish feeling. It seems as though nothing is off limits as being described as ‘don’t like it, it’s so American’.

SquirtedPerfumeUpNoseInBoots · 08/01/2014 20:49

Ah found it. Just place marking again for the MNHQ response on their considered response of the deleted thread on NYE.

BookroomRed · 08/01/2014 21:11

Squoosh, I just looked it up and the Orson Welles comments were from just before he died in the mid eighties. His friend Henry Jaglorn taped their regular lunches, but the tapes were lost for years.

I'm not particularly surprised or appalled he held those opinions, but yes, I was taken aback R4 aired them at such length. He wasn't discussing Ireland as a nation, either, he was making slurs about Irish immigrants to the US, and comparing them negatively to other ethnicities of migrant. It was the length of airtime the R4 edit gave it that surprised me.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 09/01/2014 09:15

Checking for response from HQ which i'm sure is about to happen any minute now.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 09/01/2014 09:26

Please do also consider a firm line on anti Scottish comments on independence threads too, MNHQ. Sorry to butt in here.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 09/01/2014 09:39

Totally agree fanjo- i have seen that too. Ive also seen anti american studf aswell. Its all just sort of 'accepted' here that its ok to say these things and have these 'jokes' about these countries. Like its common knowledge that we are the butt of a joke and are being 'hypersensitive' to have a problem with that.

brandnewiggi · 09/01/2014 10:44

It's the 9th of January now Confused Sad
Biscuit

wigglesrock · 09/01/2014 10:54

I think they're busy encouraging MN Local which is ironic. To be honest they could be sitting making daisy chains for the all the use they've been in the past week.

It's just shit communication, I'm not saying a policy needs to be shown now but for fucks sake its just rude now.

BackOnlyBriefly · 09/01/2014 12:28

Perhaps they have answered your demands, but you missed it. :)

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 09/01/2014 12:53

If they have they have answered them in invisible writing.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 09/01/2014 12:56

Hmm- just checked my email and there is a response from MNtowers saying they are looking at it today and should get back to us soon.

Either backonlybriefly is psychic or has access to information from HQ that we dont.

The1stTimeEverISawYourPan · 09/01/2014 15:02

yes here too as a response to my reporting my own post which was only slightly tongue-in-cheek

BeyondTheLimitsOfAcceptability · 09/01/2014 16:19

They do seem to be "back in the office" today, I've had about 3 emails so far!

and a PA from me that was over 24hrs old deleted

SacreBlue · 10/01/2014 11:35

I have laughed at tv programmes with silly Oirishisms and dodgy accents. This does not mean I have to accept comments or threads perpetuating stereotypes, and condescending attitudes, to my heritage without challenge.

Having a sense of humour can relieve a lot of stress and, challenging attitudes, often ingrained, can also move things forward. I totally agree with PP's analogy of the use of stereotyping amongst their own group - I have zero problem with a fellow Irish person or friend of any nationality calling me Paddy etc but the use of that type of thing from someone I don't know carries a weight of historical connotations that I may well find very offensive.

I hope that the silence from MNHQ denotes research & debate on the stance to be taken on contentious issues. In the meantime I, like others above, am hiding threads with comments that I find offensive. The only reason I have not hidden this thread is that I want to know the outcome.

JustineMumsnet · 10/01/2014 13:22

Ok, first of all apologies for the delay in getting back on this. That's entirely my fault to be honest, I've only just managed to read the threads in question, though they've been well flagged to me, as been away and lots of things occurring since I've got back.

I agree that the original thread should have been deleted for being deliberately inflammatory and I'm glad we got there in the end.

The reason for the moderating confusion in this case is that we don't have a knee-jerk deletion policy because a user or a number of users find something offensive. There are plenty of times when one person's humour, for instance, is another person's soft spot and we generally take the view that it would become very hard to know where to draw the line - who are we to decide that one person's hurt is more valid than another's? We'd end up routinely deleting everything on offence-caused grounds which would mean deleting an awful lot. On balance we'd rather go for free speech, debate etc.

BUT, as said, in this case that was the the wrong call. The subject matter is clearly serious, the hurt is profound and the OP's general subsequent posts did indicate that this was a thread that was started to inflame.

Secondly, I want to be clear that we absolutely don't want racist views on Mumsnet. I agree with everyone who's pointed out that racism can take the form of prejudice based on nationality and that we ought not to be too worried about the semantics of what constitutes racism or not, we ought to delete nasty, bigoted prejudice-based comment straight away. And to be fair, I think, we generally do.

So, all in all, we didn't handle this as well as we'd have liked. It can be incredibly hard sometimes to see the wood for the trees, particularly when there are lots of reports going down and people are angry. And some of these calls, as you know, are tricky to make.

Thanks to all for your input and apologies to those who've been upset by this issue.

JinglingRexManningDay · 10/01/2014 14:32

Thanks for the clarification Justine. Will this mean any anti Irish or Irish piss taking posts will also be deleted (or anti whatever country or whatever country piss taking posts for that matter)?

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 14:41

Hmm, not sure that has cleared up or clarified anything at all justine other than reiterating what was already known about HQ made a mistake with their initial handling of that thread.

I would like to know what HQ's intentions are for any future threads or comments (and currently running threads that have been reported but remain unchecked) that express a derogatory or bigoted attitude towards a country or nationality or the people who identify as being of that nationality.

JustineMumsnet · 10/01/2014 15:13

@JinglingRexManningDay

Thanks for the clarification Justine. Will this mean any anti Irish or Irish piss taking posts will also be deleted (or anti whatever country or whatever country piss taking posts for that matter)?

Well, I think humour is a slightly different category to downright bigotry and as said we don't want to end up deleting absolutely everything reported as offensive, so I think we need to keep things deliberately vague here to allow us to use common sense. Eg I'm not sure we'd want to remove "typical stiff upper lip Englishman". We are much more inclined to remove piss takes of minority, oppressed groups however. And we've all noted the hurt these two threads have caused and will definitely bear that in mind going forward.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 15:19

Taking your example justine- would you remove it if it was "typical gun toting american" (i have seen this on MN and it is rightly objected to)

JinglingRexManningDay · 10/01/2014 15:29

The Irish were an oppressed group for a long long time and in some places are still referred to as Paddies so I'm assuming that you will be including Ireland in that...

JustineMumsnet · 10/01/2014 15:43

@YoureBeingASillyBilly

Taking your example justine- would you remove it if it was "typical gun toting american" (i have seen this on MN and it is rightly objected to)

It all depends on the context. I could imagine it being said in an ironic, funny way. But yes if it was said in malicious way, it should probably go.

YoureBeingASillyBilly · 10/01/2014 15:52

I Think thats what is concerning me- it seems your bar for deletion is whether something was said with the intention to offend. When in fact a lot of the things causing offence are being said out of ignorance and not malice. Ignorant comments said with the intention of raising a chuckle can actually cause more upset because when objections are raised they are responded to with 'get a grip it was a joke' 'lighten up' 'sense of humour failure' or accusations of being PO. These comments were all directed at anyone objecting to phrases used in the title and OP of a thread concerning visiting Dublin a few days ago.

MrsFeathersword · 10/01/2014 15:58

I feel I've waited a long time to hear.. Well, not very much!

But I think there was an acceptance that anti-Northern Irish comments could be racist (correct me if I am wrong) and that's a step further forward than the responses we got on NYE.

JinglingRexManningDay · 10/01/2014 16:06

I sometimes think that Ireland,Northern Ireland and the whole history behind it is not a well known subject amongst MNHQ. For example using cod irishisms may seem funny to one person but for a long time anything Irish was beaten,in some cases to death out of Irish people.

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