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MNHQ Racism policy

14 replies

ThePigOfHappiness · 31/12/2013 15:17

Hi,
I was just wondering if you could let us know when the racism policy has been amended? I'm sure following today's discussions on NI that it needs to be looked at.
It's clearly breaking the equality act to discriminate based on nationality as it is racist, yet MNHQ don't acknowledge this?
Ta

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MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 31/12/2013 17:08

Hello

Just to let you know that we've seen this one and will come back to you when everyone's back at their desks.

I'm very sorry if my tone seemed patronising or flippant - the grin and the 'ah well' wasn't intended to dismiss anyone's distress, more to alleviate some of the tension. Many apologies for getting that wrong.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 31/12/2013 17:30

We know feelings are running high and we're hoping this thread will allow everyone to express what they think, but that needs to be within Guidelines. If that can't happen then we're going to have to delete this. So please stick to the rules.

MNHQ

JulieJingleBellsMumsnet · 31/12/2013 21:11

Evening.

We're in no way avoiding this thread but we are asking that you give us a little time to look into things. We're listening to what you're saying and we're constantly looking into how we can improve things from our side but this isn't something that can be done in an hour or an evening as we'd rather take the time to make sure things are done properly.

We'll get back to you as soon as we can.

MNHQ.

MNHQ

JulieJingleBellsMumsnet · 31/12/2013 21:15

@isnirelandanation

Julie. With all due respect. You wouldn't say that and be so wishy washy in your response if the posters who are complaining were "BAME" - black asian or minority ethnic. Would you? If the thread had told most black people to grow up or most chinese people to grow up or most would you say that? would you say hang on we can't decide we need a meeting when it suits us?

It is New Years Eve and we're operating with skeleton staff. We would ask people to be patient with us in any situation that needed us to do this in order to give us the time to look at things properly.

MNHQ

CatherineMumsnet · 01/01/2014 23:01

Hi all, thank you for your comments and input. This is something that's very important to us. We've been quiet as we need to discuss it as a team when everyone is back in the office.

We will keep you updated and please do continue to post your thoughts and opinions.

MNHQ

RowanMumsnet · 03/01/2014 14:37

Hello

We're sorry if it seems like a deafening silence. We know the holidays are officially over, but several senior MNHQers aren't back at their desks until next week. We know you're very keen to get a proper ruling from us, but this is something we need to look at properly and with all the relevant staff involved. We will be doing that as soon as we practically can.

Wannabe - the thread was deleted in the end for being deliberately inflammatory, after we took some second opinions within MNHQ. So our initial call was wrong but in the end, we hope, we deleted it for the right reason.

MNHQ

KateSMumsnet · 06/01/2014 13:15

Afternoon everyone,

Huge apologies for the silence. Now that most people are back in the office, we're looking into this thread and the issues it's raised, and will get back to you soon Flowers

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 10/01/2014 13:22

Ok, first of all apologies for the delay in getting back on this. That's entirely my fault to be honest, I've only just managed to read the threads in question, though they've been well flagged to me, as been away and lots of things occurring since I've got back.

I agree that the original thread should have been deleted for being deliberately inflammatory and I'm glad we got there in the end.

The reason for the moderating confusion in this case is that we don't have a knee-jerk deletion policy because a user or a number of users find something offensive. There are plenty of times when one person's humour, for instance, is another person's soft spot and we generally take the view that it would become very hard to know where to draw the line - who are we to decide that one person's hurt is more valid than another's? We'd end up routinely deleting everything on offence-caused grounds which would mean deleting an awful lot. On balance we'd rather go for free speech, debate etc.

BUT, as said, in this case that was the the wrong call. The subject matter is clearly serious, the hurt is profound and the OP's general subsequent posts did indicate that this was a thread that was started to inflame.

Secondly, I want to be clear that we absolutely don't want racist views on Mumsnet. I agree with everyone who's pointed out that racism can take the form of prejudice based on nationality and that we ought not to be too worried about the semantics of what constitutes racism or not, we ought to delete nasty, bigoted prejudice-based comment straight away. And to be fair, I think, we generally do.

So, all in all, we didn't handle this as well as we'd have liked. It can be incredibly hard sometimes to see the wood for the trees, particularly when there are lots of reports going down and people are angry. And some of these calls, as you know, are tricky to make.

Thanks to all for your input and apologies to those who've been upset by this issue.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 10/01/2014 15:13

@JinglingRexManningDay

Thanks for the clarification Justine. Will this mean any anti Irish or Irish piss taking posts will also be deleted (or anti whatever country or whatever country piss taking posts for that matter)?

Well, I think humour is a slightly different category to downright bigotry and as said we don't want to end up deleting absolutely everything reported as offensive, so I think we need to keep things deliberately vague here to allow us to use common sense. Eg I'm not sure we'd want to remove "typical stiff upper lip Englishman". We are much more inclined to remove piss takes of minority, oppressed groups however. And we've all noted the hurt these two threads have caused and will definitely bear that in mind going forward.

MNHQ

JustineMumsnet · 10/01/2014 15:43

@YoureBeingASillyBilly

Taking your example justine- would you remove it if it was "typical gun toting american" (i have seen this on MN and it is rightly objected to)

It all depends on the context. I could imagine it being said in an ironic, funny way. But yes if it was said in malicious way, it should probably go.

MNHQ

SarahMumsnet · 15/01/2014 16:18

Hey everyone,

To respond further to the questions around jokes - as Justine said earlier, things do become a bit more complicated in this area, because in order not to delete every reference to a country that made mention of national characteristics/accents, we need to be able to use our judgment. There's a difference between someone, say, aping a French accent, because of France's position in the world, and someone aping the accent or characteristics of a country that's historically been oppressed or exploited.

Specifically in terms of Ireland, we can see a distinction between jokes of the "Englishman, Irishman, Scotsman" variety, which are built around a denigration of Ireland, and the 'top of the morning to you!' thread title from earlier this month, which was referencing a colloquialism in a value-neutral way (as was clear from the fact that the OP was heading to Dublin and excited about what she might get up to there). An equivalent example might be if someone were to start a thread entitled "Why aye, man! Gannin doon the Toon; what should ah dee when ah'm there?". I realise the north-east is a region rather than a city, and therefore not protected under the Equality Act, but it's certainly experienced its share of social and economic disadvantage relative to the UK over the years. And as a Geordie, I might think to myself "oy, we don't all talk like that, you know" - but I wouldn't (and don't think anyone else would) argue that it ought to be deleted.

All of which is to say that I think we need to retain the ability to judge reports of this sort of thing on a case by case basis; a blanket rule could back us into a bit of a corner. We absolutely agree, however, that national prejudices exist, and we'll bear that in mind when looking at relevant reports.

MNHQ

SarahMumsnet · 15/01/2014 20:18

@wigglesrock

I was going to say that there hadn't been any reference by MN at all about certainly my thought that MNHQ did appear in general to panic about NI & therefore delete or post deletion messages in a headless chicken manner.

Hey wigglesrock, sorry we haven't responded to your point. It seems, though, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the majority view on this thread is that we don't delete enough when it comes to NI threads, rather than that we delete too readily? We've looked at what we've been doing in light of that, rather than the other way round...

MNHQ

SarahMumsnet · 15/01/2014 20:29

@YoureBeingASillyBilly

Thank you sarah- i agree with you wrt dealing with each incident on a case by case basis rather than a blanket ban, however i also agree with iggi that the comparison with being a geordie shows a lack of understanding and this is something i think HQ should think about. This isnt about making fun of an accent and never was. I hope that is clear however that would go some way to explaining the lack of action on HQ's part.

I think its clear from all of this that HQ need to update their folder on some of the specifics of what is happening and has happened in NI recently. Im not sugesting a degree in irish history is necessary but enough understanding to realise why people are upset. At the minute it seems like HQ are Confused and scratching their heads saying "i dont see what the issue is"

YoureBeingASillyBilly and BrandNewIggi - apologies if you felt the geordie comparison was trivialising; that wasn't my intention at all. Of course I realise there's a world of difference between NI and the north-east of England, and I can absolutely see why people have been upset - this is recent (in some regards, ongoing) history; the GFA's only 15 years old. What I was trying to do was to use another example to respond to the particular questions people had raised about the jokey title of the 'Top of the morning to ye!' thread on Dublin - which obviously isn't in NI anyway. In our view, this sort of lighthearted reference to an accent is the kind of thing that ought to be allowed to stand.

MNHQ

SarahMumsnet · 15/01/2014 21:08

Sorry BrandNewIggi Blush! In my first post, I was referring to prejudice against the Irish (as in the Dublin thread). In my second, I referred to NI because YoureBeingASillyBilly said "I think its clear from all of this that HQ need to update their folder on some of the specifics of what is happening and has happened in NI recently." - I thought he'd misread my original post! Because I was reading both of your posts at once, I conflated them in my response; careless reading on my part. Apologies for further muddying the waters.

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