Since WBY was such a huge success, how about turning our collective attention to DV?

[lissieloo]

Quash a few myths, challenge a few preconceptions?

WBY was, and is, awesome. I really think we could do the same for domestic violence. There seem to be an awful lot of posters in, or who have survived an abusive relationship. Reality's "Now Look Here" is brilliant, and we could incorporate that. I'm sure that the bloggers would get behind it too.

Whaddya think?

I see feminism as striving for equality regardless of gender, and having to 'fight' (cant think of a better word, sorry) for that because women start off at a disadvantage so equality means upgrading the view of women as being equal to men, rather than attempting to drag men down. If there is widespread inequality in a situation (such as DA) and it is to the detriment of women, that makes it a feminist issue to my mind.

This. feminists believe that women deserve to be treated better than they are now, not that men deserve to be treated worse. A woman has the right to live free of fear, misogynists believe that a woman should accept bad behaviour, because they are inferior to men.

There is also the Real Man campaign by Women's Aid. I think if this is also highlighted, we can make clear that all men are not abusers, as it basically points out that Real Men do not abuse their families.

www.realmancampaign.com/

DespicableWee Lissieloo and kickassangel thanks for taking the time to expand on the ideas of what feminism is. That has helped me

K8 those who are living it or have lived it are Survivors of DA because they refuse to be victims and are hopeful that they will, one day, break free from the abuse.

It's an empowering word. It signifies the hope, courage and strength to be found in the individuals who face a daily struggle.

no problem. I thought the same way until a few years ago, and wouldn't describe myself as a feminist. In fact, a lot of women who actually live by feminist principles say they aren't feminists. Until they look harder at their beliefs.

I agree its perfectly ok to discuss and learn/educate/discover around the male perpetrator and focus on that as a helpful way of moving forward.

and no, why would we jus be using this as an opportunity to say anything atall against non-abusive men... I think this is completely off topic.

This isn't about men per se, but it is a male issue.

Feminism certainly not about male bashing but challenging the beliefs in men and other women, around women?

ronald you said: I am interested to know how many victims of DA/DV aren't believed. I haven't seen this as an issue.

• you are kidding me right? you are welcome to sit in on my next court hearing and see how seriously abuse is taken there and what lengths you have to go to to try and prove it to be true.

Many sexist remarks are made in relation to DV/DA, specially why she was asking for it!! - it is a feminist issue for me - feminism meaning equality for women. Saying it is a feminist issue does not negate the fact that some women abuse men. There is nothing wrong with having a focus for a campaign that helps women esp. on a site that is used mainly by women. As with your idea ronald to have a campaign that offers support for abusers who know they are an abuser and want to stop - a campaign helping male victims of abuse can be a seperate campaign. Having said that.... DC are affected by abuse from either parent and DC need to be protected from sexual, financial, physcial and emtional abuse. The victim of the DV/DA is usually the one who has to also protect the DC, they have it twice over. I am sure that there are men in this position and TBH should someone want to post about this and what they face and the myths they face then I would be ok with that. I would be interested to hear how they are treated by authorities TBH and see if there is more sexism gioing on. It would be part of the overall campaign which I feel should focus on the problem being a male one. I often find that men do find the whole abusing thing exhausting all by themselves and often look to friends to help them out - they tell thier friends thier tale of woe and how bad their partner is and then wham we have two or more at it. I face this - it is very scary both for me and my DS. Slowly I am proving the case against the friends too - and yes they are also men. It is showing a real sexist attitude amongst a group of people and to me just so shocking in today's society. Abuse to me is often caused by what someone believes, people tend to have friends who believe the same things as they do - it would make sense these people would band together.

I would say, for me, domestic abuse is a gender-based issue. I am not doubting that women perpetuate abuse (my mother did, against me and my older sister); but the vast majority of partner violence/abuse is perpetuated by men, and it is perpetuated to expand gender-based privilege. I am thinking here particularly of the fact that abuse is on-going, it is cumulative, and it tends to focus on women in the home (undermining their domestic ability, calling them personally derogatory names, comments about weight, controlling every aspect of their lives, preventing them from working, undermining their professional roles), as mothers (pregnant women are especially vulnerable), as sexual partners (rape, sexual abuse) - in other words, domestic abuse is called domestic because it happens overwhelmingly in women's socially accepted roles, it revolves around women's socially accepted roles, within a relationship.

One of the reasons many women find it hard to leave is that they have given up work to care for children, again a socially accepted role, and have no independent income; and because society stigmatises single mothers, and teaches that marriage is sacrosanct, and you should work at it.

It is telling that, according to the UNFPA, studies of small-scale peasant farming communities have found that such communities are almost free of domestic violence. They argue that this is because of the way men are socialised into masculinity in our culture, and the way in which violence is tacitly accepted. That is not the same as saying all men are abusers. But society does condone violence, and it remains silent about violence/abuse against women, because addressing that violence/abuse would mean actually addressing much wider gender inequalities.

Saying domestic abuse is not a gender issue flies in the face of almost every academic study, and policy perspective/advocacy initiative, globally.

Thank you Blooming and Feegle. I get the bit about those living with/surviving abuse and those who get out. I suppose my reservation is regarding those who don't get out because they are killed. They are not survivors. They are taken.

On another note, I agree with this: It is about each individual suffering Sorry I forget who said it but you nailed it for me. People need to be able to recognise what is happening to them and get out. Society needs to stop making excuses for abusers and focus on the abuse not who the abuser is. Because that's the issue isn't it? All too large sections of society say if a person doesn't leave s/he is colluding in the abuse; that s/he is partly to blame; s/he provoked him/her; it is different because s/he knows her attacker and it's not up to us to ask questions. Things people would never say about an unknown assailant.

I honestly would not have believed it if I hadn't seen it on that thread. It was sickening.

I honestly would not have believed it if I hadn't seen it on that thread. It was sickening.

Same here.

Will catch up on pages 2-8 but wanted to post that yes, I'm in :) I totally support mn efforts around highlighting myths and reality of DA

I suspect the discussion has been successfully focused but just in case I wanted to add my voice to victims of abuse as the focus.

i too think it is a feminist issue. my ex abused me by making all childcare my job and using that to restrict my freedom. if he was looking after the kids he was doing my job for me.

and he did it because he believes i deserve less respect because I am a woman. worse, his woman.

However, when i said the campaign should be about the survivors not gender, i mean the survivors of abuse are usually women and their dcs can be male or female. my dss is a survivor of DA.

yes the perpetrator is a man as most perpetrators are.
however, if you focus on the victim and leave the campaign against male violence with the men (because the kind of men who perpetrate acts of violence against women are not going to.listen to MN).

if the campaign focusses on survivors first then it may help more people. (and women being empowered to leave their abusers that sends out a powerful message to men who abuse)

and I use the term survivor because I don't want to be called a victim.
However, the women who die at the hands of tgrur partners are correctly termed victims of DA. they have not survived

K8 those unfortunate women survived every single day until they were murdered, they were survivors until they became victims of domestic homicide.

The issue re; support women/ support anyone who has/ is experiencing or has experienced could become very murky if it was to deviate from supporting women.

FWIW- I vote that we, as mostly women should support women.

Interesting conversation, everyone.

I see what people mean about making it gender specific. I still think it shouldn't matter, but I guess it might have to.

I would like the campaign to focus on not just myths and "saving" women and children from DA but on ongoing support to help prevent the abused from returning to their abuser.

survival is a known psychological term for living in a particular 'state' during which options and choices are completely different to someone living in freedom, with equality in a loving relationship and extremely hard to understand from the outside, and also, as many survivors have testified here, from the inside. When getting 'out' it can take years sometimes to realise 'what just happened!' and to sort through the chaos and trauma bonding that has taken place to literally start life again.

To explain it to the greater society is a very complex issue, and certainly is about challenging widely held beliefs (popular myths).

A child turns up in school with poorly fitting/damaged clothing and smells of wee. What does the teacher/other mums/school kids believe around that?

How many just thought pooor child, followed by, what mother would 'allow' that? How can there be any circumstance under which you would 'let' your child go to school this way?

How about health visitors reporting mothers with babies that have obviously continuously soiled nappies. That would be the 'mother's' fault?

How about the totally unreliable friend who just doesn't turn up, quite often and just seems to lie about/make excuses for that, but seems just to be a misery who makes little effort and 'doesn't help herself'?

Alll of these things are evidence of abuse, how can one know they are?

I think its been mentioned further up about financial control, mothers can be bullied and held to ransom over money or just not be given any atall, and then where does the nappies come from?

If the children and mother are walking on eggshells, and often not allowed to use the bathroom in the morning, or the mother is prevented from going to her child in the night (bed-wetting extremely common in abuse) the child is rushed to school just to get out the house to keep them all out of harms way.

jailer type dominators will hide car keys, shoes, actually make the woman's life so hectic inside the house that there is simply no time or no way of getting out the house socially.

Another likely scenario is that the egg-shell walking is just not enough right before going out and a 'row' will be contrived. The continual haranguing of the woman, and when she finally gets angry about the repeated harrassments is assaulted in some way, emotionally or physically, and cannot go out like that.

I think it is only through understanding the tactics of the abuser that women [society] gain understanding of the difference between just regular arguments and living in fear, and deeper insights into where fault [victim-blaming] lie.

So yes, the society needs to understand tactics and through that understand the intent and the basic belief systems that these people work on.

Its hard for those in it to see, and often the survivor will come across as the controller/mad/crazy one, and certainly any friends around will be encouraged to believe that, and situations engineered to demonstrate that to those around on the outside.

So back to the original point on being in survival mode throughout such a relationship, the brain changes during that time, significantly, and cannot process thoughts, decisions as effectively, self-trust to make those decisions is gone, and any self-belief dramatically eroded. Decisions are made around protecting children all day and night long, women will expend vast amounts of energy in what look like strange activities to an outsider, in order to keep her DC safe.

Think of being enlisted into a cult, and you would be getting close. Think also of waterboarding, and brain-washing, as these are truths of the situation.

It can be as simple as a look... how to understand the control exerted by a look.

The profile of the abuser is such that generally women cannot escape truly without going into hiding, unless, he has found another woman (and normally extremely quickly, often shocking the survivor at the speed with which he has now fallen madly in love and has a fantastic brand new life and is a changed man, with someone else - and another survivor is created).

If the abuser hasn't found a new woman to prop up his performance mask to the world with, he will still direct all his energies to pursuing and creating chaos. Especially using DC to force the mother to do his bidding.

ooops! way waaaay too long! this was in response to the preventing the abused returning to the abuser.

We can't

We can only educate /challenge beliefs in society and DC growing up to ensure women are treated with respect and dignity, and equals.

As tragic and dire as it is witnessing a survivor returning, her life is about her choices. He takes that from her, we can't too.

Can I also add to Fairy s last post re; we can't prevent a woman returning?

This is extremely important and everyone who is involved on this thread or any other situation in which they find themselves supporting a survivor of DA.

We cannot express our opinions on a woman's r.ship status, we cannot tell any woman that she should leave, we cannot get involved except to provide support, encouragement, information, signposting etc and only if the woman requests it.

The only instances in which you would not respect a woman's wishes would be if you suspected or she/ someone disclosed that the perpetrator was abusing the children.

We aren't here to save anybody, we are here to offer the tools so people can save themselves.

I think many women would be shocked at how easy it is to be drawn in by an abuser and how slowly it erodes away your confidence and freedom. The control is often masked as courtesy or concern, and you feel petulant if you complain.

Because many people choose to blame the victim for not leaving, I think it's very important to make it clear that this is a gradual process that slowly binds the victim to the abuser, cutting off all avenues of support bit by bit. They then reach a point where they are afraid to leave, afraid nobody will believe them or help them, and it's not until their fear or anger towards the abuser is greater than their fear of leaving that they really reach that breaking point IMO.

YY Alice and can I add that in the same way some blame the women for nt leaving the relationship some then blame the mother for not allowing contact with DC or not being willing to have direct contact with the abuser regarding contact - they don't understand as fi said: If the abuser hasn't found a new woman to prop up his performance mask to the world with, he will still direct all his energies to pursuing and creating chaos. Especially using DC to force the mother to do his bidding.

The WI take on a subject every year by collective vote to campaign on. Recently one was about saving British bees.

Just wondering maybe if mn might think of either working with that lobbying group or creating similar?

I would be interested. I'm not interested in random subject picking which DV/this post asks for. The bounty one grew by itself but most subjects don't grow organically like that. I would be fine with DV being one of say 5 suggested topics to choose from, but not keen on random choosing.

I do think, to that end, it's important when we are being supportive to those who are looking at leaving, that we are clear that this behaviour may continue and to encourage people to take steps to remain safe and know their legal rights.

I think the general public do often think "oh well, she's left him, so that's it then." Except it usually isn't.

death by a thousand paper cuts

and

the boiled frog!

both terms that very well describe the experience (well known amongst those who have experienced it and a good aid to some insight into it for those who are lucky enough not to have)

just challenging the myth there, as I do think that current societal norms minute by minute condone and allow abuses to continue. Referring back to mention of men not speaking up when other men use terms like slut and slag, asking for it, in judging a woman's sexual behaviour as a result of how she looks. Calling women princess, baby, something other than their own name (as in deciding what they will call them). My names Fi... Oh, Hi Fifi, such a lovely name... no, its Fi... alright! dont get your knickers twisted Fifi... or a version of..

Subtle

yy Feegle

judgement = suicidal

Validation and support along with specialist advice on planning, escaping whilst staying safe, as critical danger period - they will detect the women's shift in her thinking about her situation and either revert to the massive wooing and crying, declarations of love, or tighten the reins significantly, upping the ante.

kickass good posts.
thinking about your questions above I think one way to spot the difference is if you point out to someone that what they did was maybe not very fair, they might see your point (even if they get a bit defensive at first) where as an abuser is more likely to make it your problem.
An abuser will not question that they are in fact entitled to the better seat and the bigger portion and will try to convince you you are in the wrong for suggesting otherwise, either that or they will bring up some other side issue, something that you did to try to distract attention or they will just deny your version of events.

however, I don't think anyone should blame themselves for not spotting the early signs of abuse. The early signs of abuse are as you correctly point out very hard to distinguish from normal behaviour abusers are as capable as the next person of 'acting' normally as much as non abusive people are capable of being selfish. so they are hard to spot.

in cases of abuse I think sometimes people tie themselves in knots working out what went wrong and when, when the real issue is if it is now abuse then survivors can give themselves permission to act now without having to analyse how it happened. if that makes sense.

the general rule is that one or two instances of what might be classed as emotional or verbal abuse happen in many relationships. it is when these incidents are prolonged, regular or sustained, when the victim is being blamed by the perpetrator for causing the incidents and most crucially when their purpose is to control and intimidate that is it abuse.