Since WBY was such a huge success, how about turning our collective attention to DV?

[lissieloo]

Quash a few myths, challenge a few preconceptions?

WBY was, and is, awesome. I really think we could do the same for domestic violence. There seem to be an awful lot of posters in, or who have survived an abusive relationship. Reality's "Now Look Here" is brilliant, and we could incorporate that. I'm sure that the bloggers would get behind it too.

Whaddya think?

do you get district judges in England? sorry, i thought that was just America. in that case the judge should know better. parents don't have rights. they have responsibilities.

Ok, I'm back. Will catch up now. Minke, yes, that was my worry. We don't want to alienate our target, and the "you" puts the focus onto the abused, not the abuser.

y y y absolutely... .I am sick of hearing fathers talking about ownership and rights over their DC.

Here the children hold all the rights, we only have responsibilities to them. It is a good way... so makes a mockery of supermen, spiderman types demanding rights here there and everywhere. Its another common tactic amongst men.

All the abused mothers I am aware of are still trying to offer good contact for their DC with their father. Stats on the other hands [sorry], display most men will be less in their DC lives 2 years after a separation.

I can't shy away from using the 'he' and ensuring my support for this being a male issue.

I don't want to hide away anymore behind the fear of not being heard/believed because of the very pressures that are out there that we are trying to push back and obliterate.

I do want men to make this their issue. I want women to make sure they make female abuses their issue too... I guess we would all be ok with that. women do seem to readily take on responsibility, and too readily blame, and to hide under pressure, this is key to the problem, that its time to shift that dynamic completely... this makes it also a feminist issue.
Although I have never thought myself a feminist, I think feminism (as an act) must temporarily exist to challenge the dynamic and status quo.

'... amongst men' should have read 'abusive men, plus deluded non-abusive men'

Fairy, I completely understand, but surely we should focus on the abused. We know that the huge majority of DA is male on female, but I wouldnt want to get the backs up of those we are trying to help and support. Plus, the "he" is just a klaxon for MRA trolls, who would possibly scare off those seeking support.

We should concentrate on the survivor, make it about her.

that is interesting LeStew I had never heard that.

Hi Lissie... I don't want to hide off just because its a troll claxon. So much of surviving sadly, is working out what the hell just happened, after a complete immersion in his blame. It is personal for her, it is about recognising what 'he' did. I do think this is the only way to be a woman supporting a woman trying to escape or recover [essential part of which is seeing it/understanding it] from it?

Hiding... we cannot hide, isn't this the point?.. that it is the trolls and the whatevers that we hide from that prevent this from overwhelming the trolls and ensuring it is a man's issue. We cannot keep it this way anymore?

I really don't think we can be fearful of saying 'he' in this dire circumstance, bearing in mind this is a massive issue of 2/3 women a week losing a woman/mother to male abuse.

So the abuser [he] is so key in the recovery of the survivor [she], to remove gender from the words out there does distance the connection to it?

So on a poster for example.. there wouldn't necessarily be need to mention gender [highlighting abusive behaviours, reactions to them (eggshell walking etc)] but for the survivor everything is about being a woman and the male abuser.

I know personally many women will not talk to men (any of them), will not received medical assistance from them, are terrified of male police officers as a result of their male abusers, won't seek access to services offering male solutions - counsellors, therapies, solicitiors, barristers.

Its very personal and intrinsically gender driven, the same as asking a rape victim to reach out for gender neutral help, it doesn't help.

This doesn't discount that there maybe women rape survivors who will be happy to discuss with male officers, have internals from men, etc. and the same for abuse, but I would say contra-indicated in this situation just as a general rule.

for instance, if you go to one of the main stays of DV forums (Womens Aid), you must declare that you are a woman before you are allowed to have access to the forums. this doesnt stop trolling, but it does make women feel safer to post, and the women together are able to work together with strength in female numbers and strong [vital] associations/bondings with others to deal with much trolling, the rest the mods chase off.

I don't think we can stop, only damage limit, the trolling, they are vast minority evil everywhere in virtual and real world experiences, and abusers themselves of course.

I don't want to run scared of being strong together as women, it doesn't mean anything other than being strong together as women (its not an 'against men' statement).

When you say 'get the backs up' [of those we're trying to help], I'm not understanding why. I am definitely missing that. What would get their backs up, and is this the 'backs' of the survivors you mean?

Wooo ! way too long.. off to eat! will check back lots later i think

I do think it something that women are in together, and isn't being un PC in any way.

just read LeStewpot x-posted because of all my words I think!

same vein... much more succinct!

I totally get that there is definitely a need to be clear to all, including survivors that non-abusive men are alive (& not kicking!)

i can see merit in both sides of this.

i did have to say to someone only today- the thing about feminism is it is not about men (for all the men who think it is about men hating)

and if we don't make it gendered, my ex would probably read the poster and think he was the victim . that is what he said when we split 'i am the victim in all this' the victim of me asking him to help, of me not doing what he wanted, of me deciding i had had enough.

When you say 'get the backs up' [of those we're trying to help], I'm not understanding why. I am definitely missing that. What would get their backs up, and is this the 'backs' of the survivors you mean?

Yes, there are many women who are scared of feminism. And would find the "he" offputting. However, as stewie says the evidence is to the contrary. I'm just really not comfortable with the "he". But this is splitting hairs. I'm on my phone at the moment, but will come back.

I think it would be useful to ask the women survivors if using 'he' is off-putting? There are so many of them. Like I was saying too... it seems essential, and LeStewpot has noted from research to prove there's a significant benefit.

Feminism has nothing to do with loving or hating men. Love non-abusive men, hating abusive men. Not that I would say I've had anything to do with it, that's just my feeling.

Love generally, good people non-gendered.

Feminism has nothing to do with loving or hating men. Love non-abusive men, hating abusive men. Not that I would say I've had anything to do with it, that's just my feeling.

I absolutely know that, but there are many who don't. And I just don't see how the he is essential. In fact, as I said, it makes me quite uncomfortable. Whereas saying "you" puts the survivor in the spotlight, so to speak.

That's just my feelings on it.

I think it might be one for the experts.
either put it to some sort of vote or better yet if MN did decide to go ahead with thus maybe they could do it in conjunction with WA?

I am sorry, I can only read this quickly.

If the question is whether the campaign should be gendered or not, then the point is surely that domestic abuse is gendered.

coercive control article

If you have the time, then the article here, which is the first chapter of a book, explains why. It is about power, and it is about where the power is in society. Quite a lot of the examples are horrific and easily recognisable as DV, but the argument is really that these mask the much more prevalent (and insidious) relationships of control which constitute DA.

The problem in concentrating on survivors, is that to become a survivor, you need to understand and see what is going on, which means that you need to have the knowledge to look close to home and realise that those little things, which make up the net you are trapped in, are perpetuated by him and serve him. And it might not be as apparent as bruises, it might manifest as depression, or as anxiety, or as stress, or as stress-related illness, and it might take a long time to join the dots.

And the point of the above article is that, because we understand DA as violence, this masks what DA actually is. We all know that, but the question is how to communicate it, as I understand the thread. I still look at DV/DA lists and don't recognise myself, but I read that article, the stuff on coercive control, and I was shaking by the end of it. Because for me, it was the regulation of every aspect of my life, and the way it was done, it was the invasion of every boundary I had, gradually because he was my DH and he loved me, did I not love him?

So, you don't have to be hit to be hurt OR he doesn't have to hit you to hurt you - whatever makes a woman think about why she is hurting, why it feels wrong. The fact that this is a woman's website, and that the majority of domestic abuse is perpetrated against women, using their status as women, would lead me to favour an approach which led them to look close to home at why they hurt.

Because actually, unless it is obvious, your intimate relationship is not the first place to look. And 'you don't have to be hit, to hurt', well, we could hurt about anything. The stress, the depression, the anxiety, you might then say, I am not being hit, but I hurt - is it caused by work pressures? circumstances? the weather? Anything before you acknowledge that the person who is supposed to love you, who is supposed to protect you, has you metaphorically and literally on the floor. I explained it every which way before I got there.

'He doesn't have to hit you to hurt you'? That prompts the question - is he hurting me? If so, how? And what can I/do I do about it?

Good article fox

I think we already have the proof of all those that experienced it, plus the experts, from the research posted ^ thanks fab

There's no need to be rude.

I agree fab. Mnhq haven't even agreed yet, I'm sure we can settle on a name that we agree on. I'm concerned about trolls scaring away posters wanting support. Or alienating those who find feminism scary. Its possible to be subtle.

The message of how to support, understand, empathise and show that you care for a victim of DV/da feels like something new.

It would be a really useful thing that mn could educate the public and help swathes of people experiencing DV/DA.

The other stuff sounds very similar to any women's aid campaign

Yes, I am sorry if my coming late to the discussion and then post an essay offended anyone, I am glad I did not kill the thread though. I was worried I had.

Ronald, I think to an extent it may sound like WA campaign , but the point, at least as I see it, is that DA happens to women who do not understand what is going on, and because it is not as graphic as what we understand DV to be, would not relate themselves to a WA campaign.

I think the really radical thing to do would be to address the cause of DV, that is, target the perpetrators and/or notions of masculinity which condone male privilege and indeed, violence, but I am not sure how you do that on a predominantly women's website.

I don't know, I also get what you are saying lissie about not alienating people, but it depresses me. We would not even have WA if it were not for feminism. And I guess one point is that 40 years on, we need those organisations and what they do as much as ever.

Maybe if the campaign had a heading like 'Breaking the cycle of abuse' (but snappier) but with a content that addresses the way abuse works and what can be done, that might be a way to unite both aims.

'Breaking the silence'?

DA/DV continues because no-one says anything.

Ronald, I agree.

Fabulous, it is depressing. But feminism gets a really bad rep, and survivors of abuse, in my experience, are intimidated by feminism. They have been fed the "man-hating" line and will often say "I'm not a feminist, but..." I get what you mean though. And I think you have made some really good points.

It is probably a message that needs reinforcing from the sound of this discussion... that feminism is about loving non-abusive people [regardless of gender] and being equal, and nothing to do with hating men, because that will absolutely make it clear.

It is some more male mud that had sadly stuck and slowed the cause dramatically.

But that is a different campaign. This isn't a campaign for feminism, it's a campaign for survivors of DA. I know that the two are linked, but feminism isn't the only aspect and it shouldn't be the driving force.

It's about human decency, not pushing agendas.

And I say that as a staunch feminist.