Since WBY was such a huge success, how about turning our collective attention to DV?

[lissieloo]

Quash a few myths, challenge a few preconceptions?

WBY was, and is, awesome. I really think we could do the same for domestic violence. There seem to be an awful lot of posters in, or who have survived an abusive relationship. Reality's "Now Look Here" is brilliant, and we could incorporate that. I'm sure that the bloggers would get behind it too.

Whaddya think?

The coverage of Saatchi's attack on Lawson proved why this campaign is needed. From "Nigella's no victim, no battered wife" to his disappointment that she didn't stand up for him. So many myths and cliches were peddled, it made me so angry.

The way that controlling, potentially abusive relationships are portrayed as "romantic" also bugs me. Healthy relationships aren't aggressive, there is nothing romantic about rowing all the time or walking on eggshells, passion isn't rooted in control.

I wasn't believed by a medical professional at first. H had been with me at a couple appointments and was very courteous and charming. So when I was at an appointment on my own and told her some of the things that had happened, she said "He seems fine to me." And then she changed the subject. I tried again, saying that he acted much differently when we were home alone than when we were in front of other people and she still said that he seemed calm to her. She even put it in the notes that he was calm and relaxed in her opinion! It was very very hard for me to tell another medical professional after that, as I just didn't think anyone would believe me. Thankfully, when I spoke to a practice nurse a month or so later, she did listen and was quite helpful.

I told one friend, her reaction was "no way! he's always so nice!" NOW she believes me, because she started watching more closely and started noticing little things here and there. And another friend who was shocked when his "friendly mask" slipped in front of her.

But it was so hard to tell people and sometimes even harder to convince them. He was so careful to keep it at home IYSWIM. You begin to doubt your own sanity.

I am so cross on your behalfs.

behalves?

I don't think I can support this unless it is promoting it as a male issue.

I go back to nodding with the poster who says that its perfectly ok to have a female discussion about this primarily male perpetrated crime without having to add the coda that 'women do it too'. Can we leave that behind for the purposes of myth busting, as it is a high profile myth perpetrated by perpetrators and supported in society at large, and an important one to get right, certainly in this context?

Women surviving and trying to make things different is partly a feminist issue and partly huge education, validation and support through the massive recovery required from it.... but DV is a male issue. and not a female issue.

So supporting yes the survivor's, absolutely... amazing post Rose with huge acknowledgements to the strength for survival.

again, like child abuse is not a the child's issue, and racism, and so on.

Also feminism is a male issue. A friend (a male) said to me last week when I complained at someone making an assumption that I would wash up his stuff, and he [male friend] said [of women reacting badly to that] how they were perfectly justified in feeling that way..

that is a male making feminism [quite rightly he says] his issue and that of his fellow male population. By not speaking he believes he is condoning it... y y y he didnt try to minimise or normalise that .... tick :) and feels the same about DV.

This is surely part of the aim?

well said Lissie nothing romantic or playful about a hand round the throat atalll ... deadly serious.. deathly

Fairy, yes, I think so. MN is a forum used largely by women, why shouldn't we focus on women? The "women do it too" argument is redundant, and often used to derail, shut down any discussion about how this affects women.

As an aside, I've told this story before, but DS marched up to the newsagent to tell him off for displaying papers like the Sport and the Star. He told them that they were rude and women aren't toys. He also bollocked my dad for calling a woman a stupid fucking bitch, told him that you don't use words like that to describe women.

I am very proud.

As you were

Fairy, thank you, and yes. Movies like Twilight infuriate me, because Edward is actually a controlling, abusive timebomb throughout most of the films and books. Yet teenage girls think that this is romantic, and what love should be like!

It isn't purely a male issue though Lissie

Perhaps there is room to discuss making any possible campaign about information for those who have been or are being abused in a domestic setting or by a partner?
Making it informative for anyone supporting any victim of domestic abuse

Educating everyone about what DV/DA is.
Teaching boys and girls about strong female role models, the importance of complete equality in life, the positive and necessary role of feminism.
Maybe educating people about what does and doesn't constitute a healthy relationship

No, it may not be, but the vast majority of abusers ARE male. MN is a site largely used by women. The majority of posters who have been abused are women who have been abused by men. Why shouldn't that be the main focus? Should we always fix a "Of course, women do it too" to each post, in case we upset the MRAs?

breakthrough.tv/explore/campaign/ring-the-bell/

So, how much should women be involved in supporting/promoting campaigns aimed at men to end violence and abuse?

I'm asking because where there are things like 'reclaim the night' walks that have men attend, there can be some awkward/awful situations where the men seem to take over and try to run things, almost like they need to tell women how to campaign for themselves.

Should we try to support a move that is aimed at men owning up to the responsibility, not just personally, but on behalf of other men? Or should we leave that side of it to men?

As far as support for women is concerned, I really think one message is that the small things can and do matter. there's another thread on here atm by a woman whose husband does nothing. His neglect & laziness are a form of abuse as she is having to adapt her entire life around how lazy he is and the fact that she is doing everything about earning money, caring for kids etc.

I think "It's not abuse until it's really bad" is a myth to get rid of. Sometimes a raised eyebrow or shake of the head is enough to make a woman get back into line, as she knows she'll be in trouble if not.

If this was in any way turned into a feminist issue I would run a mile and so, I suspect, would many others

My main concern in making this a genderless issue is the terminology used. If we say "let's focus on the victims regardless of their gender" then that is an admirable sentiment, but will exclude more people than it includes by casting the net to include men being abused. If we aren't able to identify by gender and say "women who find themselves in X situation" or "men who do Y are being abusive" then we have to replace 'women' with 'victims' and 'men' with 'abusers'. The simple fact is that will deter 'victims' in the early stages of abusive relationships. When it is early on and red flags start flying is precisely the time that intervention and education can make the most impact, because a good knowledge of the patterns of abusers and the likely methods of escalation would mean that many victims would get out before it got really bad and threatened to destroy them. They could have a clear understanding of where the relationship might go and draw their own line in the sand if it reaches that stage.

If the entire educational campaign is framed in terms of victims and abusers, these self same people simply will not engage with it, because they do not self identify as a victim, nor do they identify their partner, the person they love, as an abuser. Vital time will be lost. Countless victims will not be reached. Additional damage will be done to those victims and any children in the household until it reaches the point of no return, when the victim does begin to identify as having been victimised.

I suspect that purely on a numbers basis, more women would be deterred from engaging and self educating than men would be included. To my mind, the bigger (numerically speaking) issues should be addressed first, paving the way for follow up campaigns on female to female, male to male or female to male DA.

bigbuttons, I don't think there is any need to state this as a feminist issue, it is still possible to focus on women without it. The only way it has come up is when the red herrings have.

yes, definitely leave it to the men to shoulder that particular rucksack [baggage] it really isn't up to the women to do that for men (there's the possibility we'd get blamed for 'running' it anyway.

yy a look is all it takes!

to understand bigbuttons 'turned into feminist issue' - in what way? do you mean abuse being a male issue? or something else?

I think "It's not abuse until it's really bad" is a myth to get rid of. Sometimes a raised eyebrow or shake of the head is enough to make a woman get back into line, as she knows she'll be in trouble if not.

this.

I'm not entirely able to explain what I mean by it not becoming a feminist issue. I think I mean that I don't want it to be about men being shits and women being abused. It is about each individual suffering for me.
I am a woman and I was abused. Was I abused because I am a woman? Yes most certainly, but not all men are abusers.
I feel very uncomfortable that this might turn into vilification of men in general.

bigbuttons, I understand that. It's a common misconception that feminists hate men (actually, feminists think more of them, because they know that not all men behave badly, whereas misogynists believe that all men do and are just being men)

No-one is saying all men are shits. They aren't. Some are. And we are focusing on women being abused by men because MN is largely populated by women who have been abused by men. Does that make sense or was it rambly?

I think domestic abuse and domestic violence education should be free from gender attachment.

Information on how to support a victim suffering abuse should not be gender based

Information on what the victim might be going through and how endlessly difficult it is need not be addressed solely to women.

If we make the campaign about what domestic abuse is and not who it happens to I think that it is more useful.
Young men and women will be more aware of it and able to recognise that it is wrong.
They in turn may be able to help or support friends or parents/relatives who are absolutely frozen or running to stand still in a DV relationship

If it is only about women we half the width of our audience.

I wonder if this isn't a problem caused by differences in what the term Feminist means, in that case, bigbuttons

I view DA as being very much a feminist issue, because it disproportionately affects women. Women are statistically far, far more likely to be victims of DA than men are. Women are far more likely to 'put up' with a lot of the low level, entry grade abuse because they are women and it often centres around traditionally female things like housework and childcare. Women are more likely to stay in a DA relationship if there are children around, because of the societal stigma surrounding single mothers whereas single fathers tend to provoke the exact opposite response in the general public. Women live in a society that rates their happiness and well being below that of a man, so they start off feeling unimportant. Women are programmed not to make a fuss and put up with mild/medium discomfort and inconvenience for others benefit, so they are less likely to draw a line when DA behaviour begins emerging.

There is also a view of Feminism being synonymous with Man Hating, which is wrong, unhelpful, dismissive sadly, very very common.

I see feminism as striving for equality regardless of gender, and having to 'fight' (cant think of a better word, sorry) for that because women start off at a disadvantage so equality means upgrading the view of women as being equal to men, rather than attempting to drag men down. If there is widespread inequality in a situation (such as DA) and it is to the detriment of women, that makes it a feminist issue to my mind.

That is my take on feminism though, I don't speak for all feminists everywhere

thats fair enough, but if we widen the focus we risk alienating the majority who really need it. There was no need to turn it into a gender specific thing. But, as I have said, the "women abuse too" argument is one that is frequently used by MRAs as a red herring. That has been addressed. Why can't the main focus be on women? on a website that is woman-centric? a website that frequently campaigns for women? When the vast majority of posts about abuse are from women?

Men are perfectly welcome to campaign to raise awareness for F/M DA. I will support any such campaign. But why would they want to try to take over this one?

bigbuttons - saying that "most abusers are male" is nowhere near the same as "most men are abusers".

anyone who think those statements are the same is easily confused, and it is in fact touching on another myth. Lots of people know (and there are a lot of facts to support this) that most abusers are men. However, this gets twisted into anyone who stands up for women is saying that ALL men are abusers.

It completely isn't the case.

Some people would say that anything that involves women (even a conversation between two men) can be a feminist issue. In that very broadest of sense, it is a feminist issue. In the sense of men-bashing, it ISN'T.

That's why I linked to the One Million Men project - I would like to make it clear that there are plenty of men out there who don't abuse AND are willing to stand up and try to influence the men/boys around them to also be non-abusive.

I think it perfectly suitable for mn to support women who are in abusive relationships. As part of that there has to be some hard talking about the figures and how many abusers are men. But it can also link to the positives - like the TED talk, where men are not just passively standing about being nice guys, but also taking a stand.

I personally think people like Patrick Stewart are heroes. (For those who don't know, he's a survivor of DA, supporter of One Million Men, forgiver of his abusive father, and also supports PTSD victims, which his father suffered from)

I want people to know the truth of DA so that they can deal with it and combat it.
I ALSO want to keep a clear picture of how there are good men, so that I don't end up a bitter twisted 'feminist', but can be a caring, compassionate loving person who believes that women are equals (ie, a feminist).