National Union of Teachers calls for lesson teaching time to be capped at four hours a day - what do you think?

[JaneGMumsnet]

Hello,

We've been asked by Metro to find out your thoughts on the news that the National Union of Teachers (NUT) has said that teachers should spend no more than 20 hours a week taking classes (four hours a day).

The NUT called for new limits on working hours amid concerns that school staff are facing "totally unsustainable" workloads. In some cases, teachers are left with little time to eat, talk, think or even go to the toilet, the NUT's annual conference in Liverpool heard.

The NUT passed a motion demanding a new working week of 20 hours' teaching time, up to 10 hours of lesson preparation and marking, and five hours of other duties. Other duties include time spent inputting data and at parents' evenings. This marks a drastic reduction in teachers' hours, the conference heard.

NUT Coventry representative Christopher Denson claimed that official figures from 2010 show that a primary classroom teacher works 50.2 hours a week on average, while a secondary school teacher works an average of 49.9 hours. "The same data tells us that four in five teachers have worked all through a night to catch up with work and spend every single term-time Sunday catching up with lessons," Mr Denson said. He added: "It's essential that we act to ensure that what's already NUT policy - a maximum working week of 35 hours - becomes a reality for teachers."

Do you agree with the NUT's position?

If you are a teacher, do Mr Denson's comments resonate with you?

We'd love to hear your thoughts.

Many thanks,

MNHQ

I know orangesandlemons, not everywhere does.

A few years ago I got sent home at lunchtime on a revision day - only 2 of the 5 kids who'd signed up turned up, & Deputy Head decided it was a waste of money to pay me for the afternoon.

Having paid for a day's childcare, this actually put me out of pocket, so next time I was asked, I said no thanks.

After enough of us did the same, it was agreed that you sign up a minimum number of students & then you get paid for the day.

I still barely broke even though - 4 hours @£30 (plus another 4 at least preparing the resources) & I paid my CM £80 to have my 3dc for the day, so forty quid for 8 hours work - not even NMW. Definitely wouldn't be doing it unpaid.

Raven - do you mind me asking if you charge your students for these revision days? Thinking about setting something up next year, but I hadn't got round to thinking about it yet!

DH's pay and conditions clearly state holiday pay and entitlement (non-teacher) too.

Nope Hercule, comes out of school budget.

We are a noted 5 A*-C factory, so borderliners get pressganged into attending! A lot of it comes out of Pupil Premium I think.

Thanks Raven!

I deal with teachers pay. Teachers are salaried and as such are treated as every other salaried employee in the country, they get paid to work a contracted number of days a year .
These days are divided into contact and non contact hours in their case most of these hours are worked in term time.Under the burgundy book to work out an hourly rate you would add statutory holiday entitlements, but there is generally no need to do this. The salary is then divided by 12 and paid in equal instalments.

Holiday pay is generally only shown separately if you are paid on the basis of an hourly rate or if you do shift work.

ALL the 1265 directed hours are worked in term time, outtolunchagain.

It's a requirement that schools produce an annual breakdown of directed hours - I posted a link to some examples upthread. I helped draft ours for this year.

Most schools allow a 'cushion' of 20 hours or so, for contingencies, but my HT couldn't suddenly announce that he wanted me in for 3 days next week because there's a shortfall in directed time, for instance. Because, y'know, I'm on holiday & not being paid...

& my dh is salaried & his pay slip does, definitely, specify which proportion of his monthly wage is holiday pay. This might be because he's at a level of management when he's often working from home or works away from home, but it's clearly demarcated when he books time as holiday.

The pay and conditions document (which I linked to earlier) clearly shows there is no mention of holiday pay for teachers

it clearly does on page two - if you do not get paid for holidays then bank holidays would not need to be mentioned. the additional bank holiday was in term time so you would have needed your pay reduced if you do not get holiday pay? So was your pay reduced?

Now we have outtolunchagain stating that teachers are like every other salaried worker in the country - well every other salaried worker in the country get holiday pay included in their pay as it is illegal not to give holiday pay.

I am salaried and my pay slips do not show - definitely - not show holiday pay and I do get holiday pay. I am contracted to work 156 days per year if they want me to work extra then it is in my unpaid holiday time and they need to pay me to do so which they do as overtime. I still get 6 weeks holiday pay which is .4 above the legal requirement.

it is just not all my holiday is paid- the 6 weeks is paid and the rest is unpaid

If it makes you & Polly happy to decide that some spectral & unspecified chunk of teacher salaries is actually secretly holiday pay, that's absolutely fine.

You haven't convinced me, I'm afraid, & I'll be continuing to rely on my contract, the pay & conditions which are in the public domain, & my payslips for more reliable advice.

Why do you want to think we receive pay for part of the holidays? I'm a bit bemused as to why this is important to anyone who isn't a teacher, given that quite a number of experienced teachers on this thread are confident that we understand our pay & conditions.

I've slightly lost track of whether you were originally wanting to cut our pay, increase our hours, or just call us a bunch of whingeing bastards for the hell of it....

Oh hang on, I think I might see the confusion!

The extra BH was mentioned last year because it was an anomaly in contracted days - we normally have to work 195 days, last year it was 194.

Not linked to pay.

Last year was the first every time I got a day's paid holiday in my opinion with the extra bank holiday. Gotta love Wills and Kate!

I asked the question and time and again I was patronised and given a different answer - then linked to something that I was told would show clearly that holidays were not mentioned- yet it was, den someone who works with teachers pay state that she would add holiday pay

I didn't come along to want to cut your pay increase your hours or call you a bunch of wankers for the hell of it

I came to read and then ask a question as couldn't understand how come the law could be broken.

I have been polite and have tried to get to understand whether you really do get holiday pay or you do not get holiday pay?

I only asked one question - seems strange you can't keep track It is me that can't keep track with so many conflicting solutions to the one question

Just because your holiday pay isn't mentioned on a pay slip doesn't mean you do not get holiday pay

But you still haven't answered the last question - did you get docked a days pay in 2011 for the extra bank holiday?

If I get holiday pay, does that mean I'm owed 12wks annual leave from my 2 lots of ML? Can I tack it on to the end of my year's leave and not go until 2014??!

outtolunchagain - I am not sure what you are talking about with the hourly rate. The burgundy book clearly sets out different conditions for teachers paid a full time salary and those paid an 'hourly rate'. You can't work out the hourly rate of a full time teacher - so I am very confused as to how you think you could do this? Polly might also like to read the burgundy book as it clearly sets out in there what proportion of salaries are the minium that should be paid for a term of service and what the resignation dates are. Again no mention of holidays and certainly no way that we could randomly resign and claim some owed holiday time...

Ivykaty. No we don't get paid for holidays we get paid for our contracted hours. Usually these are 1265 hours/195 days in a year. Last hear our contracted hours under the school pay and conditions document which doesn't mention holiday entitlement anywhere on that page our contracted hours were 194 days/1258.5 hours (or something similar). If you want to think of it as we did get paid for the the extra bank holiday feel free - it was a brucey bonus day off in my opinion.

TryingtobelesschunkyChik - some people seem to think so! And according to the document Polly linked we can ask our employers for days off willy nilly, as we apparently are allowed 28 days a year. Just working out whether going back later in September or finishing earlier in July works best for me... then I'll also claim back my holiday pay tacked onto my mat leave...

I have ivy; I answered it last night, & tonight.

Again, no, the extra BH did not affect our pay. Which is why this year's P&C document specifically mentioned it as an anomaly in days worked.

It fell during school holidays, so didn't affect us at the time, & was then tagged on to the end of the year as a disaggregated day 'in lieu' by my LA.

This is SOP whenever, for example, an INSET day is inconvenient. One year term finished on the Friday, we were due to have INSET on Monday, but the caretaker hadn't been informed & was flying off on his holidays. We were given the option of making up the time as twilight sessions or carrying it over to the following academic year.

All that was unusual about last year's BH was that the LA agreed, on a discretionary basis, to finish a day early at the end of summer term as we hadn't 'gained' it like the rest of the UK, since we were already on holiday.

Can't say I paid much attention at the time - we just broke up on Thursday, not Friday.

& as repeatedly explained, it did not affect our pay.

I think they've got a case. They certainly should not be working more than 48 hours a week amortised over the year, according to EU regulations, and I know an awful lot of teachers who put in more than that even allowing for the fact that kids aren't in school for 13 weeks of the year.

I was only talking about the hourly rate in the context of a comparison for someone who is not a teacher , although we do sometimes work this out for notional reasons it is only notional.

The NUT document Maternity Matters actually sets out the method for accruing teachers AL at para 4.9.Although this particular document deals with maternity the principal applies to all teachers.

So if you don't get paid for holidays does that mean you get no pay cheque in August? It must also mean you are free to take alternative employment for the non-contracted hours? I get paid for 1,610 hours (I actually work vastly more hours than that). On top of that I get 210 hours paid holiday plus 56 hours paid bank holidays. However I also have a clause in my employment contract that stipulates I am not allowed to have a second job.

If you are contracted to work so few hours then I assume you are permitted to supplement your salary over and above those hours. 1265 hours equates to 36.14 working weeks for me leaving 16 weeks free. That's a lot of free time.

'although we do sometimes work this out for notional reasons it is only notional.'

Precisely.

In my job we are asked to contract out of the EU working time directive. We don't have to but we are expected to (and everyone I know has). A 48 hour working week isn't viewed as excessive in my employment. In fact it is a normal, not overly busy week.

I reckon I do about 2,400 hours a year on average. Maybe I should retrain as a teacher.

Yes we can take other jobs as out contracts only state 1265 hours, none of which is paid holiday. Feel free to read out pay and conditions documents , they are freely available on the Internet and have been linked to a few times now despite no-one believing them seemingly.

I know a number of primary teachers who work as holiday time nannies to supplement their pay, teachers who do bar work or other seasonal work in holidays. Not many and usually those with no children of their own and in their first few years when they pay is lower.

Bisjo - our annual salary, based on 1265 hours of directed time over 195 contracted days, is paid twelve times a year, for convenience.

This is a long-standing arrangement adhered to in most countries (although some US states apparently allow you to opt out & just be paid, each calendar month, for the proportion of contracted hours which fall within it, so that WOULD mean no August pay check, lower pay in December/January).

We can take on additional employment, yes - I'm a GCSE examiner. Several of my younger colleagues do private tuition. In theory one could pull pints/stack shelves over the summer, but you'd hit emergency tax & it'd be unlikely to be worthwhile.