National Union of Teachers calls for lesson teaching time to be capped at four hours a day - what do you think?

[JaneGMumsnet]

Hello,

We've been asked by Metro to find out your thoughts on the news that the National Union of Teachers (NUT) has said that teachers should spend no more than 20 hours a week taking classes (four hours a day).

The NUT called for new limits on working hours amid concerns that school staff are facing "totally unsustainable" workloads. In some cases, teachers are left with little time to eat, talk, think or even go to the toilet, the NUT's annual conference in Liverpool heard.

The NUT passed a motion demanding a new working week of 20 hours' teaching time, up to 10 hours of lesson preparation and marking, and five hours of other duties. Other duties include time spent inputting data and at parents' evenings. This marks a drastic reduction in teachers' hours, the conference heard.

NUT Coventry representative Christopher Denson claimed that official figures from 2010 show that a primary classroom teacher works 50.2 hours a week on average, while a secondary school teacher works an average of 49.9 hours. "The same data tells us that four in five teachers have worked all through a night to catch up with work and spend every single term-time Sunday catching up with lessons," Mr Denson said. He added: "It's essential that we act to ensure that what's already NUT policy - a maximum working week of 35 hours - becomes a reality for teachers."

Do you agree with the NUT's position?

If you are a teacher, do Mr Denson's comments resonate with you?

We'd love to hear your thoughts.

Many thanks,

MNHQ

[BoffinMum]

48 hours a week in a job like allied health professions, teaching and so on is generally a terrible idea. They are physically gruelling jobs a lot of the time. People can and do keel over.

[outtolunchagain]

The salary amount paid for those 1265,hours a year incorporates an amount for the 28 days AL that teachers are entitled to under the Working Time directives. In other words the salary includes 28 days of paid holiday but because this not separately identified as such many teachers do not understand this .

This is clear because a teacher on maternity leave continues to accrue their AL and is entitled to take this in addition to maternity , as explained in the document that I referred to in my prior post.

[ravenAK]

By all means, bisjo - give it a go.

Think it's about £9k for the PGCE so you'd need to factor that in, but we do need a constant supply of fresh meat to replace the 1/3 of teachers who drop out or burn out within 5 years of qualifying.

[Arisbottle]

Bisjo teaching is a fantastic career, please do join us. I worked out that I work approximately 3200 hours a year.

I know of quite a few teachers who have other jobs in the holidays to supplement their pay.

[BoffinMum]

I used to have to work as a journalist in the holidays to make ends meet. I was permanently overtired though, a lot more than people who were journalists f/t and so on, and my friends who were solicitors, office workers, etc.

[outtolunchagain]

In fact it clearly states that where teachers resign at the end of maternity leave and are not able to take their annual leave then they may be entitled to a payment in lieu of their AL if teachers were not entitled to paid AL then clearly this would not be the case.

[difficultpickle]

Gosh, not sure I'd fancy a 70 hour working week every week I work in a year! How many years have you been working like that Arisbottle? It must be shattering to live like that. I am on call 24/7 for every day I work but I'm not actually working 24/7. Of course there are times when I'm away on business and could technically clock up a working week of 168 hours, although 120 hours is probably more realistic for actual working. Don't like to do that too many weeks a year though as it is truly destroying.

I would make a rubbish teacher. I think you have to be passionate about your subject and able to communicate that and inspire children who may not be that interested in what you have to teach them. I can count the teachers I had like that on the thumbs of one hand. The rest were a mix of very average and downright dreadful. I'm better off sticking at something I can do very well indeed than doing something that I know that I would be mediocre at best.

I wonder what the drop out rate is for teachers who have done something else prior to becoming teachers? I think it must be quite hard to go from being a pupil/student and then teacher all in a very similar environment.

[ravenAK]

IME, at least in recent years, the most resilient teaching recruits (but also often the most cynical about doing it for a few years in their early 20s to enjoy the holidays, get a decent credit rating for a mortgage & then drop off to have a family/do something better paid) are 'second generation' - one or more parents was a teacher, so they know what they're letting themselves in for & have an 'exit strategy' all worked out.

I went in after working in industry for years, & our drop out rate is higher I believe.

People who've been out of school for a few years seem to have relatively rose-tinted memories of school - let's not forget we're generally the geeky swots who were in well behaved top sets - & somewhat higher expectations when it comes to work/life balance.

All of the above is purely anecdotal, though.

[Arisbottle]

Have been teaching about 8 years, did something else previously . I work far less than other teachers, am the lightweight option on MN. The hours are manageable because of the holidays .

I went into teaching to have time with the children , it had worked out for me .

[MrsHerculePoirot]

outtilunchagain can you tell me which paragraph and section that is in please? I can't find it anywhere... Is it in the burgundy book or pay and conditions doc? I've looked in both and can't see it...

[MrsHerculePoirot]

Ok I've found this which I think sort of explains it relatively well.

It clearly states that teachers do not have a contractual entitlement to paid annual leave and says that the

[MrsHerculePoirot]

It also says that under the working time regulations teachers are entitled
To 28 days statutory leave, but that the WTR don't explain how this works for the teaching situation. What this means is that it only affects mat leave in certain situations.

The fact remains though that teachers don't get any paid annual leave.

[outtolunchagain]

Hercule that advise is out of date it has been superseded by the 2012 advice I think you will find

[PollyEthelEileen]

:sigh:

There are two types of holiday rights - statutory and contractural. Teachers get statutory rights - honest!

A teacher's contractural responsibility is to take these statutory holidays when the school is closed.

[MrsHerculePoirot]

Then yet gain can you link me to where it says this?!?

[outtolunchagain]

The para is actually in the supplementary info in the NUT document maternity matters para 4.9.I think you probably need the 2012 edition.

[MrsHerculePoirot]

polly where in our contract does it say that? If it was a contractual responsibility it would be in our contact AND IT ISN'T - feel free to read the doument and point out where it is. It may well be different for independent school teachers though.

[outtolunchagain]

The thing is because the rights are statutory rather than contractual they will not be in he Burgundy book which is about teachers' contractual rights .

[MrsHerculePoirot]

Thanks - It says exactly the same, just more succinctly.

[outtolunchagain]

Sigh :(

[forheavenssakes]

Following this with interest. Seems obvious from the Maternity Matters document that teachers' annual salary comprises directed hours (i.e term-time hours you are contracted to work at direction of head teacher), additional hours (that are self directed) and statutory holiday leave according to the working time directive. Employers can specify when this leave is taken and for teachers they have to take this statutory leave during school closure. As the number of days of school closure vastly outweigh the number of paid days of annual leave a teacher receives it would only ever become an issue during maternity leave.

[outtolunchagain]

Absolutely!

[PollyEthelEileen]

You are correct, FHS. :)

[aJumpedUpPantryBoy]

But the public perception is that teachers are paid for all 13 weeks of holiday which is not true.

[PollyEthelEileen]

A note about the 1265 hours of directed time...

This is not an expectation of working hours. It is time directed by the head teacher. In line with other professions, teachers also have to spend non-directed (time and place at the teacher's own discretion to support their own teaching), subject to an appropriate work/life balance.

When someone goes over 1265 hours, they are not suddenly working for free. They are simply doing what is needed to do the job.