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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

National Union of Teachers calls for lesson teaching time to be capped at four hours a day - what do you think?

425 replies

JaneGMumsnet · 02/04/2013 16:04

Hello,

We've been asked by Metro to find out your thoughts on the news that the National Union of Teachers (NUT) has said that teachers should spend no more than 20 hours a week taking classes (four hours a day).

The NUT called for new limits on working hours amid concerns that school staff are facing "totally unsustainable" workloads. In some cases, teachers are left with little time to eat, talk, think or even go to the toilet, the NUT's annual conference in Liverpool heard.

The NUT passed a motion demanding a new working week of 20 hours' teaching time, up to 10 hours of lesson preparation and marking, and five hours of other duties. Other duties include time spent inputting data and at parents' evenings. This marks a drastic reduction in teachers' hours, the conference heard.

NUT Coventry representative Christopher Denson claimed that official figures from 2010 show that a primary classroom teacher works 50.2 hours a week on average, while a secondary school teacher works an average of 49.9 hours. "The same data tells us that four in five teachers have worked all through a night to catch up with work and spend every single term-time Sunday catching up with lessons," Mr Denson said. He added: "It's essential that we act to ensure that what's already NUT policy - a maximum working week of 35 hours - becomes a reality for teachers."

Do you agree with the NUT's position?

If you are a teacher, do Mr Denson's comments resonate with you?

We'd love to hear your thoughts.

Many thanks,

MNHQ

OP posts:
whokilleddannylatimer · 04/04/2013 10:47

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Arisbottle · 04/04/2013 11:31

I agree that the wording could be better but I do not think that limiting contact time to 4 hours a day will be as revolutionary as many people imagine. We are talking for standard primary school teachers - two extra hours a week. Although I guess that means two extra hours when you are not creating work for yourself as well.

Whenever I teach a five period day - which I rarely do now I tend to have one lesson that "needs improvement" I do think it is a good starting point to improving the work life balance of teachers.

One thing this thread has taught me, and most others on here, is that I am very lucky to be in the school that I am. I have been getting tired lately and thinking of moving schools. I think I will stay put.

fl0b0t · 04/04/2013 11:54

I have to say that I agree with creatureretorts

I am not a teacher, though I know many, and I have spent much of my working life working in and with Schools as an outside agent. I have all the makings and skills to be a teacher, and yet I'm instead middle management in a charity. Why? Because having seen the workings of schools from the inside, I know that there is no way I could do it. I love children and I've worked with them and volunteered with them for half my life. But I could never be a teacher.

We should give a little more respect to our teachers, they do a fantastic job. Imagine your work (if you're not a teacher), being a constant meeting or training course, between 8:30am and 3:15pm. In the "breaks" you're preparing for the next bit of the course, and at "lunch" you're looking after the delegates outside (who are of course, running, shoving, screaming and fighting)- doing conflict resolution, running a gardening workshop (which you know nothing about) and administering first aid. Then at the end of the day, you have two of the delegates lawyers who want to talk to you about how their client has been misrepresented during the previous day's course. After that you are running a short extra workshop for Poetry (which is not your specialist subject). After that you have a meeting with the other trainers (whilst eating your lunch), then you must collect up the work from the day, and mark it, whilst preparing the sessions for the next day. Some of the sessions will be repeats from last year, some you will have to alter because of the makeup of your group (including three new people, 6 who don't speak english very well, two who are disruptive and one with special needs), and two of the sessions you are in the process of entirely re-writing as the course outline has changed from last year.You realise you have not had a wee or a drink since 10am. It is now 10pm and the caretaker is locking your building. The Boss calls you into her office for a chat about your behavioural management during the previous week's inspection.

Ok, so that might not be every single day, but yes it's a stressful job in which teachers are pulled in too many different directions, and placed under a huge amount of pressure.

Schools are often quite unplesant environments to work in. Sad to say but large groups of women (particularly in primary schools) who can be particularly nasty to each other, especially when under pressure.

The benefits are long holidays, which are especially handy if you have children yourself.

The reason the general public feel like teachers are "paid for their holidays" is that they are paid a salary every month, even on those months they are on long holidays. The UK minimum holiday allowance is 5.6 weeks paid leave per year (can include bank holidays), whereas teachers have 13 (?). This is fixed as to when it can be taken.

Starting salary for teaching is £21,588 pa (according to Department for Education, outside of london), which if it's Pro Rata'd (i,e you're NOT paid for your extra holidays above and beyond 5.6 weeks) would be £18,515 per year.Which it's not. So actually the salary, pro rata (i.e £21.5k if you worked a full 52 week year, but you are only working a 44 week year plus 5.6 weeks holiday) would be more like £24.5k (? I question my own dodgy maths!). But even if my maths is hoeky, you get the point!

I for one want to see teachers (especially good teachers) rewarded for their hard work. I want to see educations standards rise, especially in deprived areas and in communities that typically don't achieve well academically. And I think teaching is a very important job, that we are all too quick to do down, or complain about with no experience of what it's like to lead a classroom of 32.

At the same time, I would like to see teaching time rise, support for teachers increase and teachers being able to work the number of hours they're paid for. If you work in the public/private/third sector and get paid a 37 hour week but work a 50 hour week- good for you, have a bloody medal. However, just because you do it, don't expect other people to do it, or think you know anything about the pressures on other people in other jobs.

PollyEthelEileen · 04/04/2013 13:08

MrsHP, the article is not for independent school teachers, if you read on.

The point of posting it is to show that there is an element of holiday pay.

Everyone is entitled to 28 days per year (pro-rata). It doesn't come up for regular teachers because the 28 days comes out of school holidays, so pretty much used up by February half-term.

It becomes important for supply teachers and those working part year (eg maternity leave).

Most teachers can live in blissful ignorance to this - and it shows.

MrsHerculePoirot · 04/04/2013 16:12

SORRY Polly Blush. I have just read it again and can see that it means an independent group did the review not independent schools. I completely misread that before, apologies.

However, that link you posted to does only apply to supply teachers., and the particular link you posted from 2008/2009 was talking about the possible changes that actually ended up occuring much later I beleive. As I have said earlier, and others have explained much more clearly that me teachers are only contracted to work 195 days/1265 hours. We do not get paid holidays. We get paid for 195 days per year, but this is divided into 12 equal payments across the year.

The pay and conditions document (which I linked to earlier) clearly shows there is no mention of holiday pay for teachers. Supply teachers (or short term teachers) are entitled to some holiday pay if they are employed through an agency due to the application of the Agency Workers Regulations that came into force on 1st October 2011. If however a school employs a supply teacher directly they they just get paid 1/195th of their equivalent salary for every full day they supply for.

exoticfruits · 04/04/2013 16:51

I have never seen the point of working for an agency-I always worked for schools direct- and the pay was nice and simple.
If there was holiday pay I can see that it would be easy to shorten the holidays -but as it stands it is much too expensive an option ,and won't happen.

PollyEthelEileen · 04/04/2013 17:03

When I worked as a supply teacher (directly for a school), my paycheck itemised pay for the day and holiday pay.

All employees in this country are entitled to a statutory 28 days holiday (full time). It is naive to think otherwise.

lisson · 04/04/2013 17:07

28 days including Saturdays and Sundays?? Usually people just say 20 days and they mean Monday to Friday.

Feenie · 04/04/2013 17:12

All employees in this country are entitled to a statutory 28 days holiday (full time). It is naive to think otherwise.

Really? I must be very naive then, knowing that the armed forces, the police, teachers and the civil protection services are exempt from this - because our contracts state contractual holidays, instead of statutory paid ones.

HorryIsUpduffed · 04/04/2013 17:44

Statutory minimum leave is 5.6w or the equivalent. That is 28d if you work five equal days a week.

But.

eg if temping you can be paid in lieu of leave. And those can include bank holidays.

PollyEthelEileen · 04/04/2013 17:49

You are correct Feenie about police (and perhaps other emergency workers) but you are not correct about teachers.

PollyEthelEileen · 04/04/2013 17:51

28 work days.

PollyEthelEileen · 04/04/2013 17:53

www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights/entitlement

Feenie · 04/04/2013 18:30

Teachers' Pay and Conditions

MrsHerculePoirot · 04/04/2013 18:32

polly. What does that link show? It says 'almost all workers', nothing about teachers. Please can you tell me where in the pay and conditions document for teachers it mentions holiday pay. I certainly woul have loved to have accrued holiday pay whilst on maternity leave as that link suggests site case for almost all workers but sadly as a teacher I can't.

PollyEthelEileen · 04/04/2013 20:39

It shows what you don't want to believe!

The workers who are not part of the statutory system are from the armed forces, police and other people in civil protection services. This does not include teachers.

Don't believe me - look here

MrsHerculePoirot · 04/04/2013 20:53

Hahahaha! Have you read it?!? If that applies to teachers I'll be putting my request for my 5 weeks holiday in the summer term. Lovely, will be nice not to pay full whack for holiday stuff.

It says that workers entitled to holiday can choose when to take it, that your pay and conditions document MUST state about holidays and pay.

I am going to bow out now polly as you are not reading the teacher pay and conditions that both Feenie and I have linked you to. But keep linking I general information about 'most workers'.

This thread was originally about the 20 hours proposal.

Feenie · 04/04/2013 20:58

The citizens advice link says almost all workers. Your second link says 'Most workers have the right to take a minimum amount of paid holiday', and that 'some workers are exempt'.

You still haven't shown us where in our contract it says statutory holiday pay - and it would have to, because the time when we can take it would be restricted, obviously. It doesn't, because our holidays and our pay works differently as laid out n the document.

PollyEthelEileen · 04/04/2013 21:00

As I said, you don't want to know.

If you are working part year, it would be in your best interests to understand your holiday pay. If you stop work before the end of the Easter holidays, you may not have used up your 28 days yet.

Feenie · 04/04/2013 21:06

It doesn't work like that - and if it did, it would obviously have to be clearly laid out in the extensive pay and conditions document.

PollyEthelEileen · 04/04/2013 21:07

Oh, mercy!

ravenAK · 04/04/2013 21:09

Didn't we do this last night?

Teachers' pay & conditions are in the public domain. Several other posters have provided you with links. I am currently looking at my pay slip, which I've fished out of the bottom of my briefcase, & which contains a comprehensive breakdown of my pay & deductions, including an unpaid half day off to attend a funeral, an extra payment for running a revision day at half term, & my childcare voucher deduction.

We don't get holiday pay.

PollyEthelEileen · 04/04/2013 21:12

If you look at any payslip for a regular employee in any job, it doesn't show holiday pay.

orangeandlemons · 04/04/2013 21:14

You get paid for extra revision days? We don't. Angry

ravenAK · 04/04/2013 21:15

My husband's does, as does his contract of employment.

Honestly, we are paid to work 195 days.

I could resign tomorrow, be back in the same school in September on supply, & be paid /195 for every day I chose &/or was needed to work.

As one of my colleagues has done this year after his emigration plans fell through.

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