National Union of Teachers calls for lesson teaching time to be capped at four hours a day - what do you think?

[JaneGMumsnet]

Hello,

We've been asked by Metro to find out your thoughts on the news that the National Union of Teachers (NUT) has said that teachers should spend no more than 20 hours a week taking classes (four hours a day).

The NUT called for new limits on working hours amid concerns that school staff are facing "totally unsustainable" workloads. In some cases, teachers are left with little time to eat, talk, think or even go to the toilet, the NUT's annual conference in Liverpool heard.

The NUT passed a motion demanding a new working week of 20 hours' teaching time, up to 10 hours of lesson preparation and marking, and five hours of other duties. Other duties include time spent inputting data and at parents' evenings. This marks a drastic reduction in teachers' hours, the conference heard.

NUT Coventry representative Christopher Denson claimed that official figures from 2010 show that a primary classroom teacher works 50.2 hours a week on average, while a secondary school teacher works an average of 49.9 hours. "The same data tells us that four in five teachers have worked all through a night to catch up with work and spend every single term-time Sunday catching up with lessons," Mr Denson said. He added: "It's essential that we act to ensure that what's already NUT policy - a maximum working week of 35 hours - becomes a reality for teachers."

Do you agree with the NUT's position?

If you are a teacher, do Mr Denson's comments resonate with you?

We'd love to hear your thoughts.

Many thanks,

MNHQ

So as a supply teacher there is no pay in the holidays - and as a contracted teacher there is no pay in the holidays either as was stated on this thread teachers do not get paid for the holidays

and you get the same rate of pay when you work - if you are on the same pay scale

I only asked how come you didn't get holiday pay as it is illegal not to?

Just curious- teachers, did the NUT actually ask any of you about this or have they based it all on a very small and select group?

People will keep trying to prove that teachers are being hard done by over holiday pay. Teachers want the holiday- not the pay.

I've read the first 9 pages of this thread and wanted to chip in to say I massively respect teachers.

I honesty do not know why they're so disrespected - these people have our children's education in their hands so why treat them like shit? Yes, I'm sure improvements are needed - we can say that about every profession.

But the wide scale demonisation - it's on a par with benefit bashing and it's horrid.

ivy there's a difference between no pay FOR the holidays and no pay IN the holidays.

polly how lovely you are 'not a slave to ofsted', as many of my friends that have moved to teach in the independent sector tell me this is a massive improvement to their daily lives. They also find teaching much smaller classes and having more time a generally much more pleasant experience.

Sadly those of us in state schools don't have that privilege. Everything we do seems to revolve around the next possible inspection. Every new initiative or policy introduced is prefaced by 'if/when ofsted come in...'. I don't have to produce as detailed lesson plans at my school (secondary) as others do on a daily basis but I still have to plan, continuously asses, run detentions, deal with parents, mark, provide data, write ad rewrite sows every year based in the latest change to the spec, exam system, class size or whatever else it might be.

It seems to me that teachers with some kind of middle management responsibility in the state sector are the worst off. The most work with the least time, being pulled in all directions. I am sure there are some schools out there with amazing SLT, who do make life easier for their staff, just sadly not that many as they are in turn under pressure to be seen to constantly 'improving' things.

eviltwins - do teachers get holiday pay - a simple yes or no answer would be great?

I am asking do teachers who have a contract to work in a school get holiday pay?

I am not asking do supply teachers get paid when they are not working.

Let teachers decide what to teach, and take away the bureaucracy stopping them from being able to.

I don't think the issue here is about 20 hour working weeks, its about constant government interference.

I think that teachers can't teach well when they do more than 30 hours of face to face a week because they are exhausted, its emotionally, physically and mentally draining teaching and anyone that says its not clearly has never taught.

I don't think we should shorten children's school days, just create more teaching jobs, so that the load is spread between more teachers and so the important wrap around, such as research, prep, marketing and parent liaison is built into the role. A one size fits all approach to education has to end, starting with this government pulling out of constantly dictating what should be on the Curriculum.

Mumfortoddler I spoke to my teacher mother earlier who recalls being told about a school where one member of a department did less and less teaching, and more and more marking, until he was teaching no classes and the rest of the department was doing next to no teaching. Same salaries, everyone happier.

I gather that other European countries eg France and Germany keep discipline and marking/administrative tasks away from teachers. I'm sure that's tempting.

*the rest of the department was doing next to no marking, obviously.

Must go to bed.

ivykaty it was explained by ravenAK earlier on the thread and very clearly. The answer is no. Teachers do not get holiday pay. We are contracted to work 195 days that is our term time.

Other teachers can cover whilst the main class teacher is out of class marking, planning, assessing and preparing lessons. That's what happens currently anyway.

thank you for answering

I had always thought it was illegal to not pay 5.6 weeks/or pro rata holiday pay so it surprises me that this is allowed and the union do nothing about it. Thats was why I asked.

Is it easier/faster to mark maths and science work than english or history work?

ivykaty these are the terms and conditions if you want to read them. No mention of holidays anywhere.

starlight - I teach Maths, and I imagine it is much easier to 'mark' the work in my subject. I can also read out answers for example for students to mark if my class are sensible enough. However I still have to collect in books and look through all of them, making comments about what is good, what their target is to make progress etc, etc. of course if they have marked lots wrong, I still have to write detailed notes about their method and explain how to do it again, set corrections and check these next time I take in their books etc... This is however for me very preferable from my point of view to reading hundreds of essays!

I am a primary school teacher. I work 2 and a half days a week, teaching in a Year 2 class. I work very hard, from 8 to 6 on my 2 full days and 4 evenings a week, as soon as my son has gone to bed. I have been teaching for 15 years and the workload has massively increased. I do not think education has got better because of it. All I see around me are tired, stressed and unmotivated colleagues, who are fed up of being told how shit we are by Gove and Ofsted. We don't want to be praised, we just don't want to be attacked. I applaud the NUT's call for a 35 hour working week. It would go some way to recognising the workload of teachers. I think the way to achieve it is by having qualified teachers covering class teachers for their non-contact time, unlike the present system in most schools, which is to have unqualified teachers or classroom assistants covering classes. I don't think parents know the full extent of how often classes are covered like this. At the moment it seems like no-one is allowed to talk about improving any working conditions because of the economic climate, but if teachers don't speak up for ourselves, no one else will do it for us.

Page two

a teacher employed full-time must be available for work 195 days/1265 hours (the figures for the previous two years having been 194 and 1258.5 respectively due to additional public holidays);

So I take it your pay is decreased when there are extra bank holidays?

No - that refers to some ghastly wedding, or was it the Olympics? At least one of the two was within normal school holidays, I think, so made no odds to us. In fact, I seem to recall both were & then we broke up a day early 'in lieu'?!

Either way, we had an unusual extra day off. Very rare for BHs to affect us at all, other than May Day.

We're paid for 195 days. Last year, we were only required to work 194, hence the parentheses to show that this was an unusual circumstance.

Sometimes we also disaggregate days (eg. if the obvious finishing date for a term would be a Monday & the caretakers can't open up on that date, is one example I recall), so we lose one of our INSET days & make it up in 'twilight' sessions.

In my fourteen years of teaching, there haven't ever been additional bank holidays, occurring outside of usual school vacations, which have affected teachers' pay, I don't think.

Of course teachers get holiday pay - 28 days.

The oft-mentioned 195 days is "directed time" - specific time that the HT directs the teacher to be on duty. Teachers also have to do non-directed time because they need to to get the job done. How teachers manage their non-directed time is up to them.

webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/tna/+/teachernet.gov.uk/_doc/14183/Calculating%20holiday%20pay%20for%20short%20notice%20teachers%20-%20teachernet.doc

I spent many years working in a very busy newsroom (radio television) with half hourly deadlines and everything in between and retrained as a teacher. I now barely get time for lunch (detentions / tutoring sessions / duty - ie catching smokers etc / calling parents / sorting practically for the next lesson), but worse is toilet breaks. I know call centre workers have difficult daily targets, but the problem with teaching is the absence of truly "uninterrupted" time allowing you to get your head around things.

And until recently teaching was one of the few professions you took home with you (ie before smart phones etc). Small business do their accounts at home, but as a journo, I left the office in the office. Sure I might have felt stressed, but I certainly didn't do lesson prep until 11pm many evenings.

A minority of people really do believe that teachers arrive and leave at the same time as themchildren and nothing else goes on. What do you think happens with all the other stuff - do we simply "magic up" the lessons, behaviour codes etc (which parents demand).

polly, link is for short notice teachers in independent schools I think. Not for permanent teachers in state sector which is what we were talking about.

The link I posted earlier is the current pay and conditions document for this year. No paid holiday time in there. We are one of (the only?) profession where holidays are not part of our terms and conditions. I am not sure why we are still discussing/disputing this fact?

Why is it so terrible for a Union to want to improve working conditions for its members? As a member of the NUT for 15 years, I have seen our working conditions eroded slowly over the years. As has happened in all working environments. Our ancestors fought hard to achieve better pay and conditions for workers and it's all just being gradually taken away.
Why do people always have to say "Everyone has it hard - you're nothing special" - we should all be fighting for better pay and conditions. Everyone should have longer holidays, everyone should have shorter working hours, etc. People should support the teachers in their fight for a better working life.
And I say to those NUT members who are bad-mouthing the NUT: If you don't agree with what your elected executive are proposing - go to local meetings, get involved yourselves and fight from within for what you believe in - otherwise get out of the Union.

Hello all

We thought you might like to know that we've got a guest blog on this topic today, from the general secretary of the National Union of Teachers.