Deletions - These are ludicrous

[Hullygully]

Ok, that's enough now MNHQ

Stop it with the mad deleting.

Justine, part of the problem is that there have been plenty of instance in the near past when "You are being a twat/racist/etc" has been allowed to stand.

It feels that very recently there has been a policy change which is constantly being denied by yourselves. As demonstrated in your post.

You mentioned about troll hunting. Have you never been on the receiving end of the unpleasantness of being taken in by a troll? Like Korma was, Psychomum, shabba and the ladies on the bereavement thread? Or people like myself who stayed up all night trying to "help" these disgusting creatures? No? Then please don't lecture us on the harm that troll hunting does. Trolls do far, far more damage.
How many instances have there been of people being hounded off the site due to trollhunting when they weren't, versus the number of trolls who have been uncovered and stopped from doing further harm?

None of us are blind, nor stupid. Please don't patronise us or lie to us. Because that is exactly what appears to be happening.

I'm not cutting and pasting myself to a list because I can't cope with the scrolling (and I'm not sure what the list actually represents but given there are about a billion MNers I don't think it will count as a meaningful petition) but please, for all that is good and right in the interweb, do not make this some bland excuse for a parenting website. It needs to be fiesty, it needs some colour and some guts to it - and out of that comes all the compassion and the support.

Please sit yourselves down and have a long hard look at your deletions policy. We could help you with a yes/no/arrows flowchart - what sequence of events/comments leads to the button being pushed?

that must be it tantrums!

it was so vile. I rarely report anything I see on Mumsnet, but this was utterly horrible and a really nasty thing to say to a poster who was dealing with an incredibly difficult situation.

I felt it crossed several lines on the talk guidelines, but apparently MN disagreed. I was very disappointed at the time and almost stopped posting for a while because quite frankly a site where people are allowed to say such awful things to vulnerable members is not a site I really want to be a part of.

As far as this thread in general goes I ahve to say that I started out agreeing with MN, but the more I read the more I agree with the majority of posters here.

I miss the days of being able to swear. There was a whole thread of

, for example, is a twat

Which was bloody hilarious. Would we be allowed to do that now? Would a thread called 'Cunting Sainsbury's' still stand?

Fings really ain't what they used to be.

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Justine.

The issue, for me at the moment is that there has been some pretty dodgy decisions made WRT to deletions and 'education' as far as my sensibilities go.

There have been some appalling rape myths, some dreadful trolling by members of MRA and F4J, an influx of 'regular' haterz and the usual run of the mill crap. That's par for the course, I get that, but what I do not 'get' is the inconsistency. It is simply not on for posts that contain racism or sexism or rape myths, or attacks on regulars, or disablist posts to stand in the name of education, or because the thread turned out ok in the end, or because there aren't enough staff to deal with the dreadful stuff quickly enough. Coupling this with deletions for saying 'I have reported this thread' and it just looks cack handed.

I do agree with MN on the troll-hunting thing though.

I've been taken in by a troll on here, but would rather that than see someone in genuine need mocked and accused of lying. that's really horrid.

Surely it's not actually a personal attack to inform someone that their opinion is racist/sexist/disablist etc? It's merely stating the bleeding obvious, and is hopefully educating them about the inappropriateness of their opinions.

Yes, if you add something like 'you twat' to the post then ok, but I've seen plenty of posts deleted where there has been nothing of the kind. However invariably the original spout of bile post that incited the response has been left to stand. It really makes MN look very bad.

*probably because I can't access my email as it's been hacked

Haven't been here as much recently but had certainly noticed there was discontent.

I had no idea how strongly people feel.

This place is my escape as a parent, and my bit of fun, but also a place I come for support too. Such a shame that other posters feel that strongly about all this that they have dereg.

Not really doing what it says on the tin, is it ?

No it would be classed as a personal attack on mr sainsbury

Is it like one of those games where you have to tell somebody something only without saying what it is? So although we can see the racist and read the posts we are not allowed to tell them they are being a racist, while at the same time educating them on the fact that they are, in fact, a racist? But without letting on that they are a racist?

What a paradox! (is it paradox? or is an Oxy-moron? Certainly if the above is true there is definitely a moron somewhere, not that I would ever call anyone a moron because that would be a personal attack unless I were to couch it by saying a whole group of people are morons. Apparently. I think. I think I think?)

@thisisyesterday

Hmmmm interesting.

I was on a thread a while back, where a poster called another persons teenage son a rapist.

I reported it, MN said it had to stand

so... implying someone is racist is against the rules. calling someone's son a rapist is not?

maybe you could clarify this MN?

Can't comment for sure as not seen the posts but broadly calling someone a rapist sounds like a personal attack - and potentially libellous - as does calling someone a racist. But obviously context is important.

The real point is whether folks buy into the idea that they are liable to be deleted if they make a personal attack - no one likes being deleted, naturally, but do we accept the principle that we are aiming for debate and discussion without hurling insults about?

Thank you Rebecca and hope you enjoyed the gin break.

The point was I didn't make a personal attack and there have been lots of other posts deleted which were not personal attacks. Unless we are going to regard telling someone there is something wrong with making a fool of other people/stalking type behaviour/ isms as a personal attack.

I am aware there are some posts that go over the top in repudiating statements whether out of frustration or for other reasons, but it does feel like some of the most horrendous posts are allowed to stand while others which challenge them are deleted in the spirit of being a personal attack. Perhaps we could all do with standing back and thinking where the line between making a personal attack and telling someone their views are very wrong and unacceptable in a debate comes.

I do wonder if there h been a sudden influx of new members who are reporting to hq about comments most of us would regard as entity sensible?

Well, I haven't had time to read this properly but I'd rather no deletions than what's currently going on. At least if you leave nasty stuff up it shows the poster up in all their twattish glory and the resulting posts where they get torn a new asshole.

I've only reported a couple of posts for being really nasty since I've been here (and I've read a lot of tetchy stuff), more often I just report stuff for advertising or being a troll.

Exactly, Lemarchands.

@KatieMiddleton

Is it like one of those games where you have to tell somebody something only without saying what it is? So although we can see the racist and read the posts we are not allowed to tell them they are being a racist, while at the same time educating them on the fact that they are, in fact, a racist? But without letting on that they are a racist?

What a paradox! (is it paradox? or is an Oxy-moron? Certainly if the above is true there is definitely a moron somewhere, not that I would ever call anyone a moron because that would be a personal attack unless I were to couch it by saying a whole group of people are morons. Apparently. I think. I think I think?)

No I think you should be able to say "i think what you're saying sounds racist - here's why..." but you can't say "You're a racist" (not without clear cause anyway)

I have adopted a new mantra for the tools

"what you just posted was deeply unpleasant "

it can cover a lot of subjects and situations

General right wing Tool: "people in receipt of benefits are fat lazy scum"

AF: "that was deeply unpleasant"

Rape Apologist Tool: "women who wear get drunk are asking for it"

AF: "that was deeply unpleasant"

MRA Tool: "Rad feminists want to destroy families"

AF: "that was deeply unpleasant"

It's the way forward.

Well, it's all just a great big pile of sordid dirty fuck isn't it.

From now on I shall fluffily luff ebwibody and tell ebwibody dat dey are just FAB no matter what their racist biggotist twattery is.

MWAAAAAA to you all.

@Meglet

Well, I haven't had time to read this properly but I'd rather no deletions than what's currently going on. At least if you leave nasty stuff up it shows the poster up in all their twattish glory and the resulting posts where they get torn a new asshole.

I've only reported a couple of posts for being really nasty since I've been here (and I've read a lot of tetchy stuff), more often I just report stuff for advertising or being a troll.

Honestly think no deletions would lead to hell on earth - particularly around the trollhunting - we have always aimed to treat newbies on a par with oldies - I think it's the thing that keeps Mumsnet vibrant and comparatively un-cliquey. But interested to hear if folks think different (ps apols in advance for radio silence from this point - have to rush out to pick up children but will be back on later).

So why is enforcement suddenly so much more obvious?

Mumsnet is supposed to be a more or less unmoderated site, and that is the appeal. We are all supposed to be adults and most of us have the attitude of "IF you can't take it, then don't dish it out"
It is now no longer the free and easy place it was even a year ago, because of constant deletions and interference from HQ on our freedom of the language able to be used.

Perhaps we should adopt the MN rude mantra for all situations on here now.

"did you mean that to sound so (insert word of choice)ist?"

@SecretNutellaFix

So why is enforcement suddenly so much more obvious?

Mumsnet is supposed to be a more or less unmoderated site, and that is the appeal. We are all supposed to be adults and most of us have the attitude of "IF you can't take it, then don't dish it out"
It is now no longer the free and easy place it was even a year ago, because of constant deletions and interference from HQ on our freedom of the language able to be used.

MN is not unmoderated - never unmoderated - but post-moderated, yes. But I agree that you've pin pointed the key question.
If there have been more deletions of late it's one of two things...

1. More reported posts
2. Different interpretation of reported posts

We will do some analysis on a) whether there have been more deletions and if so what's the cause and get back to you forthwith... (really going now, v late for children...)

I've got to agree with justine about the troll hunting. My view was that if people can find help and support on here that's good and even if it helps someone else that's good.

Someone pointed out something I hadn't thought of - that for someone who has been through the event that is being trolled about, eg loss of a child, it is unbearably painful, which changed my thoughts.

So now I believe, report, don't publicly troll hunt, in case it is a genuine newbie with a real issue. Then of course there are the begging threads which as someone points out newer members may be taken in by - so perhaps hq stepping in whenever someone offers money etc On a thread with a gently reminder that while it's lovely how supportive people are on MN, people on the Internet may not be all they seem and you give things at your own risk?