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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Fathers 4 Justice and their recent attacks on Mumsnet

999 replies

JustineMumsnet · 17/03/2012 09:28

Some of you may have noticed that a group called Fathers 4 Justice has been saying some pretty unpleasant things about us over the last couple of weeks. In an 'advert' which appeared first on Facebook and then in yesterday's edition of the I, the group claims Mumsnet 'promotes gender hatred', and labels 'men and boys as rapists, paedophiles and wife beaters'. It calls on advertisers to suspend advertising on Mumsnet.

Most people, I'm quite sure, will see the adverts and the 'campaign' behind them for precisely what they are: a naked attempt to court publicity by a group of people who for whatever reason appear to have tired of climbing cranes in superhero outfits. (And, just coincidentally, in the run up to Mothers' Day). In fact it feels a bit like having a particularly irritating toddler repeatedly prodding you with a stick to get some attention.

By and large it seemed most sensible to ignore them, not least because we've had our hands quite full with stuff that actually matters, like Mumsnet's 'We believe you' campaign to dispel rape myths.

But since Fathers 4 Justice appear to have attracted some grown ups' attention, we thought we should tell you a bit about the background to this attack, the truth behind their allegations, and how they are trying to bully us and other organisations. Here are 10 things you should know.

  1. On March 3rd a Mumsnet user started a conversation about a poster campaign being touted on Mumsnet's Facebook wall by Fathers 4 Justice, and the fact that Fathers 4 Justice was bombarding a number of sites with this troubling image.
  1. A conversation then ensued on Mumsnet about Fathers 4 Justice and their tactics which some members of Fathers 4 Justice joined. Some Mumsnetters said some pretty harsh things.
  1. We deleted a number of posts that broke our forum guidelines regarding personal attacks. In total we deleted 70 posts from the thread which went on over the next few days and reached 1000 posts in total. 60 were posts were made by regular Mumsnet members, ten or so by new joiners from Fathers 4 Justice. Our community managers reminded users to follow forum guidelines on nine separate occasions and at least one prolific Mumsnetter left the site in protest at our deletion policy.
  1. On March 7th and March 8th MNHQ received a series of emails from the Campaign Director of Fathers 4 Justice containing threats of legal action and a threat to contact our advertisers. At the same time comments on the Fathers 4 Justice Facebook page describing Mumsnetters as 'barking mad harridans', 'weird sex obsessed paranoid perverts' and 'child abusing contact blockers' were left unmoderated. As were comments that described me variously as a 'dried up old hag', 'an evil woman' and having an 'IQ that would return a negative score'.
  1. On March 11th Fathers 4 Justice posted another attack ad this time accusing M&S of 'sponsoring hateful, bigoted and prejudiced comments about men and boys on Mumsnet' and demanding that M&S withdraw all advertising on Mumsnet or face a boycott. It accused the company of 'serving up gender hatred for Mother's Day'.
  1. Other organisations have experienced similar bullying tactics. In recent weeks Fathers 4 Justice have targeted the lone parents' support charity, Gingerbread, jamming up its telephone helplines. Senior NGO staff have told us they felt too intimidated to speak out against them.
  1. The suggestion that Mumsnet encourages gender hatred would be funny if it were not so offensive - and plain silly. The central aim of Mumsnet is to make parents' (mothers' and fathers') lives easier. There are many and varied opinions on the site and no one Mumsnet party line prevails, save for the view that we respect diverse opinion. We do not pre-moderate or vet comments made to our discussion boards of which there are around 30 000 every day. Men are and always have been extremely welcome on Mumsnet - we have a Dadsnet forum for Dads to talk directly with other men should they wish. We estimate that around 5-10% of our 2 million odd monthly users are men.

Of course you can always find plenty of Mumsnetters whinging about their male partners' shortcomings - more than there are whinging about their female partners' shortcomings - but generalisations are swiftly pounced on and we do not tolerate gender hatred, or any other kind of hatred for that matter (save maybe hatred of Fruitshoots). We encourage people to be civil and supportive and, in the main, most people are.

  1. Fathers 4 Justice campaigns for fathers to have access to their children following separation or divorce. Its founder, Matt O'Connor, says parents have 'fewer rights than a terrorist'. The organisation was temporarily disbanded in 2006 after it emerged that some of its members had plotted to kidnap Tony Blair's son Leo. Fathers 4 Justice boasts that it is 'the most controversial and high profile pressure group of modern times' but it has struggled to win public attention since abandoning its eye-catching tactic of scaling tall structures in superhero costumes. In recent weeks it has targeted Cafcass, the body responsible for protecting the rights of children in court proceedings, Gingerbread, the charity for single parents, (which it claimed supported 'the abuse of children') and Mumsnet. It has also, somewhat mysteriously, branded London 2012 'the fatherless games'.
  1. We believe that the issue of father's access to children is important and needs to be discussed. We understand that many Fathers 4 Justice campaigners are driven by intense personal anger over what they feel is injustice they have suffered in their own cases. But the recent actions the group have taken against Mumsnet and others constitute plain and simple bullying and intimidation and only harm its cause.
  1. Reading this, you may well already be spitting tacks by now. Please do remember that's precisely what Fathers 4 Justice want. If you post on the subject please keep it civil. We won't be bullied, but we don't want to be dragged into the mire either.

Many thanks.

OP posts:
SophieNeveu · 19/03/2012 18:42

Narked, Shock

NarkedPuffin · 19/03/2012 18:47

Things look bad out of context don't they? And most of those look just as bad in context.

Beachcomber · 19/03/2012 18:47

And before anybody gets frothy, UK law states that rape is penetration with a penis without consent.

PurpleRomanesco · 19/03/2012 18:47

You ask them if they are for or against the abuse of women and children and get called "angry bossy and shouty"...

SophieNeveu · 19/03/2012 18:50

beach, so a woman can't rape a male. interesting...

runningforthebusinheels · 19/03/2012 18:53

Brendan from F4J is asking are the police doing anything about these comments? He finds them very abusive and degrading.

But alas, seems the police were a bit busy over the weekend, dealing with the arrest of a naked man in London....? Hmm

Beachcomber · 19/03/2012 18:53

Not under UK law.

Although lots of people think the law should be changed to include forcible penetration with objects - I believe this is the case in other countries.

A woman would be charged with sexual assault - which can be an equally serious crime, I believe.

QueenOfAllBiscuitsandMuffins · 19/03/2012 18:53

Is fuckwit a gender specific insult?

Tiago · 19/03/2012 18:54

"the law should be changed to include forcible penetration with objects"

It was - that is assault by penetration and can carry a life term.

SophieNeveu · 19/03/2012 18:57

i assume the penetration crime should also read without consent?

SunshineOutdoors · 19/03/2012 19:00

Wow, I'm shocked by that ad. It's horrible, unfair and I really hope nobody prints it - surely no one will print it? I think Mumsnet is great, I hate that it is being portrayed like that. Really unfair on the posters having their words taken out if context like that, and I would imagine could be quite upsetting. I don't understand why this is happening Sad all that energy spent on something so negative and hateful. We should all be on the same side, I don't get where all their anger is coming from.

I'm sure it would be possible to make the same ad with extremely positive adjectives about individual or some men and boys that mn posters have written on this site. It wouldn't prove anything though, just show that you can find pretty much any word you want if you search the site hard enough.

cakeismysaviour · 19/03/2012 19:02

I have seen F4J's advert on their facebook page, which quotes comments made by Mumsnetters and claims that these represent gender hatred.

I read just one thread on F4J's facebook page and it was full of gender hatred towards women. The following are just a few highlights -
'Evil'
'Playing the victim card as usual'
'Bitter nasty women'
Accusations that all women tell 'out and out lies in front of their own children.'
Accusations that all women promote 'gender hatred, discrimination, bitterness' to their children.
etc etc

SmellsLikeTeenStrop · 19/03/2012 19:03

Victoria Lester - ''Why has eve and eve or Adam and Adam got a child for? Adam and eve make babies, if you lived as nature intended you wouldn't be in this situation.''

Shock
Beachcomber · 19/03/2012 19:04

Yes, I'm aware that penetrating someone with an object is a serious crime. I don't think it is called 'rape' though Confused.

Hence, 'male rape' is male on male rape.

A woman sexually assaulting a man is not called rape AFAIK.

www.rapecrisis.org.uk/Definitionofrape2.php

So F4J's advert makes zero sense to anyone who actually knows what rape is, and indeed, it could be interpreted as really nasty rape myth perpetuating (or being about male on male rape). It has to be one or the other really.

Although, I must say, I applaud anyone who raises the profile of male on male rape - a subject that is taboo and not talked about enough.

Tiago · 19/03/2012 19:04

Yes. I don't recall all the details but it is essentially penetration of a body with an object, for 'sexual' reasons, which the person doesn't consent to and you have no reason to think they do consent.

Disclaimer - not a criminal lawyer so my grasp of the precise mental requirements is lacking and I'm too lazy to look it up.

Tiago · 19/03/2012 19:05

Mmmm. Homophobia too - nice Hmm

Tiago · 19/03/2012 19:06

Some people do think of it as rape - but I do get your point Beach it did make me think of male on male rather than anything else.

VivaLeBeaver · 19/03/2012 19:09

So by their mentality we can report them to the police for gender hate crimes as well as probably some form of homophobic hate crime. Excellent.

cakeismysaviour · 19/03/2012 19:11

Viva - Absolutely, they are continually spouting gender hatred towards women.

I have reported them to facebook (got the screenshots first though).

SoupDragon · 19/03/2012 19:13

We're probably allowed to create a misleading and offensive ad too

PurpleRomanesco · 19/03/2012 19:15

They would really rather us all just shut up and not talk about the abuse women and children suffer because it hinders there cause. That's what that poster is really saying.

Beachcomber · 19/03/2012 19:15

Yes, lots of people probably would think that a woman, forcibly penetrated a man's bodily orifices, with an object, is called rape. Which is fair enough.

I don't think many people think folks chatting on the internet is rape though do they? I certainly hope not because that would be a very destructive and thoroughly nasty thing to do to rape victims (male and female).

Ratbagcatbag · 19/03/2012 19:15

I'm really saddened by all this, I love mumsnet and it has been a really fab source of support.

I have to admit, I didn't know too much about F4J (other than the climbing things as superheroes) and I thought that they were an ok group, how wrong I was.

I cannot believe the bullying tactics that they are resorting too, I really hope they can get in trouble for copying comments completely out of context and publishing them, I will boycott any newspaper that runs those ads.

Will I do any good by emailing M&S saying what a fab site this is and how supportive it's been or will that just cause more grief? Maybe even if 50% of the membership emailed M&S they would shoot me under the strain of emails then we would blow the F4J comments out of the water.

I really don't understand their argument with us, it's really pointless and they aren't changing anything in the courts. Grrrrrrrr!! Now I'm going from really sad to disgustedly angry!!

MmeLindor. · 19/03/2012 19:16

I am really quite shocked at that ad.

On the #webelieveyou campaign thread a brave man who had been raped posted about the fact that male rape (ie. man on man) is pretty much ignored and swept under the carpet, there is very little support and almost no campaigning.

To read this, just a week after, it makes me sick.

It is an insult to anyone who has been raped, particularly men who have been raped.

Beachcomber · 19/03/2012 19:18

Indeed it would be extremely misogynistic, manipulative, dishonest and dubious behaviour - were anyone to do it.

And making a mockery of male on male rape victims.

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