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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Fathers 4 Justice and their recent attacks on Mumsnet

999 replies

JustineMumsnet · 17/03/2012 09:28

Some of you may have noticed that a group called Fathers 4 Justice has been saying some pretty unpleasant things about us over the last couple of weeks. In an 'advert' which appeared first on Facebook and then in yesterday's edition of the I, the group claims Mumsnet 'promotes gender hatred', and labels 'men and boys as rapists, paedophiles and wife beaters'. It calls on advertisers to suspend advertising on Mumsnet.

Most people, I'm quite sure, will see the adverts and the 'campaign' behind them for precisely what they are: a naked attempt to court publicity by a group of people who for whatever reason appear to have tired of climbing cranes in superhero outfits. (And, just coincidentally, in the run up to Mothers' Day). In fact it feels a bit like having a particularly irritating toddler repeatedly prodding you with a stick to get some attention.

By and large it seemed most sensible to ignore them, not least because we've had our hands quite full with stuff that actually matters, like Mumsnet's 'We believe you' campaign to dispel rape myths.

But since Fathers 4 Justice appear to have attracted some grown ups' attention, we thought we should tell you a bit about the background to this attack, the truth behind their allegations, and how they are trying to bully us and other organisations. Here are 10 things you should know.

  1. On March 3rd a Mumsnet user started a conversation about a poster campaign being touted on Mumsnet's Facebook wall by Fathers 4 Justice, and the fact that Fathers 4 Justice was bombarding a number of sites with this troubling image.
  1. A conversation then ensued on Mumsnet about Fathers 4 Justice and their tactics which some members of Fathers 4 Justice joined. Some Mumsnetters said some pretty harsh things.
  1. We deleted a number of posts that broke our forum guidelines regarding personal attacks. In total we deleted 70 posts from the thread which went on over the next few days and reached 1000 posts in total. 60 were posts were made by regular Mumsnet members, ten or so by new joiners from Fathers 4 Justice. Our community managers reminded users to follow forum guidelines on nine separate occasions and at least one prolific Mumsnetter left the site in protest at our deletion policy.
  1. On March 7th and March 8th MNHQ received a series of emails from the Campaign Director of Fathers 4 Justice containing threats of legal action and a threat to contact our advertisers. At the same time comments on the Fathers 4 Justice Facebook page describing Mumsnetters as 'barking mad harridans', 'weird sex obsessed paranoid perverts' and 'child abusing contact blockers' were left unmoderated. As were comments that described me variously as a 'dried up old hag', 'an evil woman' and having an 'IQ that would return a negative score'.
  1. On March 11th Fathers 4 Justice posted another attack ad this time accusing M&S of 'sponsoring hateful, bigoted and prejudiced comments about men and boys on Mumsnet' and demanding that M&S withdraw all advertising on Mumsnet or face a boycott. It accused the company of 'serving up gender hatred for Mother's Day'.
  1. Other organisations have experienced similar bullying tactics. In recent weeks Fathers 4 Justice have targeted the lone parents' support charity, Gingerbread, jamming up its telephone helplines. Senior NGO staff have told us they felt too intimidated to speak out against them.
  1. The suggestion that Mumsnet encourages gender hatred would be funny if it were not so offensive - and plain silly. The central aim of Mumsnet is to make parents' (mothers' and fathers') lives easier. There are many and varied opinions on the site and no one Mumsnet party line prevails, save for the view that we respect diverse opinion. We do not pre-moderate or vet comments made to our discussion boards of which there are around 30 000 every day. Men are and always have been extremely welcome on Mumsnet - we have a Dadsnet forum for Dads to talk directly with other men should they wish. We estimate that around 5-10% of our 2 million odd monthly users are men.

Of course you can always find plenty of Mumsnetters whinging about their male partners' shortcomings - more than there are whinging about their female partners' shortcomings - but generalisations are swiftly pounced on and we do not tolerate gender hatred, or any other kind of hatred for that matter (save maybe hatred of Fruitshoots). We encourage people to be civil and supportive and, in the main, most people are.

  1. Fathers 4 Justice campaigns for fathers to have access to their children following separation or divorce. Its founder, Matt O'Connor, says parents have 'fewer rights than a terrorist'. The organisation was temporarily disbanded in 2006 after it emerged that some of its members had plotted to kidnap Tony Blair's son Leo. Fathers 4 Justice boasts that it is 'the most controversial and high profile pressure group of modern times' but it has struggled to win public attention since abandoning its eye-catching tactic of scaling tall structures in superhero costumes. In recent weeks it has targeted Cafcass, the body responsible for protecting the rights of children in court proceedings, Gingerbread, the charity for single parents, (which it claimed supported 'the abuse of children') and Mumsnet. It has also, somewhat mysteriously, branded London 2012 'the fatherless games'.
  1. We believe that the issue of father's access to children is important and needs to be discussed. We understand that many Fathers 4 Justice campaigners are driven by intense personal anger over what they feel is injustice they have suffered in their own cases. But the recent actions the group have taken against Mumsnet and others constitute plain and simple bullying and intimidation and only harm its cause.
  1. Reading this, you may well already be spitting tacks by now. Please do remember that's precisely what Fathers 4 Justice want. If you post on the subject please keep it civil. We won't be bullied, but we don't want to be dragged into the mire either.

Many thanks.

OP posts:
VivaLeBeaver · 19/03/2012 15:15

Microwave quinoa you say? Mmmmm.

VivaLeBeaver · 19/03/2012 15:19

LouisePhoenix - I agree that there shouldn't be a bias in the courts towards a mother over a father just because of gender. The most important thing is that the best interest of the child is put first - which is usually to mantain a good relationship with both parents. There will always be some cases where there are exceptions.

Women who make up allegations about ex partners do a great diservice to their children, their ex and also other families. I suppose the problem is proving things - if a man has been violent towards his family (and this does actually happen) then it may well be the womans word against the man's. Domestic abuse is often a hidden thing. It must be very hard to judge who is telling the truth.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 19/03/2012 15:41

This article is by Louis de Bernieres who is a patron of Families Need Fathers.

It makes interesting reading - don't know how representive his views are of FNF as a whole.
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2112905/The-law-doesnt-damn-fathers.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

SanctiMoanyArse · 19/03/2012 15:55

The article is interesting and I feel real sorrow for those fathers.

MmeLindor. · 19/03/2012 15:56

I agree with Sancti.

Louise
If anyone had bothered to actually READ MN before starting this campaign they would see that most of us would support the right of both parents to be involved in their children's lives if the parents were loving and supportive parents and not abusive or damaging to the children.

There are occasionally threads when a mother asks if she is being unreasonable to deny her ex access to the children. She is then invariably asked exactly WHY she wishes this, and is mostly told that even if she thinks her ex is a knob, she cannot stop him seeing them.

These threads are completely outnumbered by those where the mother bemoans her knobhead ex, who has let the children down by not turning up at the agreed time.

But to generalise from that and say, all women are harridans who stop their children seeing their children, or all men are bastards who are uninterested in their kids, is just as ridiculous as to accuse MN of being man hating.

I am totally against the secrecy of the family courts, btw - as much as I have read into it, it seems to be totally wrong that there is little or no chance of appeal once a decision is made.

I am pretty sure there would be support for a campaign asking for a reform of the family courts on MN.

swallowedAfly · 19/03/2012 16:00

if they read the feminist threads they'd realise we were the ones advocating paternity leave, greater male involvement in childcare, men being expected to still be active parents after they split with their partners etc etc etc.

swallowedAfly · 19/03/2012 16:03

have reported a couple of my posts to mnhq to ask them for comment on these ads that will allegedly be running tomorrow. i know some people have withdrawn from mn till the matter has been resolved because they're not happy with posting here meaning ending up in a paper targeted by a hate campaign.

please mnhq let's have some feedback.

Calamityboo · 19/03/2012 16:11

Do we know if MNHQ are publicly defending themselves? A counter ad or publicity of the good that is done by this site??

Snapespeare · 19/03/2012 16:15

MmeLindor haiku.

Man strips off in shop
Public nudity offence
Doesn't look good in court.

AnyFucker · 19/03/2012 16:20

Difficult situation for MNHQ here. If they respond publically, or put out a counter-ad they contribute to the escalation of this ridiculous mess.

I feel a dignified silence in the press, but keeping on posting their stance on here prominently for anyone who comes here as a result of all the extra publicity is the way to go

We all need to watch out for hostile posting too

VivaLeBeaver · 19/03/2012 16:22

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

Beachcomber · 19/03/2012 16:26

I imagine MNHQ prefers to put time and energy into things that follow the MN ethos, and actually help people - like the brilliant 'We Believe You' campaign.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 19/03/2012 16:26

oh yes i knew that i had a question mark in my mind regarding Families Need Fathers, it was that L de B piece that raised it. shame, really, it might well be a good organisation but with advocates like him...

handbagCrab · 19/03/2012 16:28

Sorry to hijack but the M and S microwave quinoa is really nice but quite expensive, it's about £1.80 for a two person pack.

AnyFucker · 19/03/2012 16:28

I meant to add, I hope HQ are taking legal advice too

DuelingFanjo · 19/03/2012 16:31

I wonder if MumsnetHQ might consider shutting down the search option if these adverts are run? Only because such ads might bring people here who are intent on causing trouble and if usernames are going to end up in the paper then it could result in intimidation or those people feeling vunerable.

BeerTricksPott3r · 19/03/2012 16:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Hassled · 19/03/2012 17:01

The latest F4J ad - apologies if this is old news. Gobsmacking - as in I really just don't know what to say.

AitchTwoOhOneTwo · 19/03/2012 17:04

OH. MY. GOD.

hathorinareddress · 19/03/2012 17:05

I hope HQ have a shit hot legal team I'm sure they do

OracleInaCoracle · 19/03/2012 17:06

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

AIBUqatada · 19/03/2012 17:06

That is staggeringly offensive. Is anyone going to carry such an ad, though? The only way it will get publicity is virally, including through links and discussion on this site. Ignore.

KatieMiddleton · 19/03/2012 17:07

I don't think they'd even need a shit hot one. Just an averagely mediocre. That is so blatant! There is libel, trademark infringement and other stuff that someone with basic legal knowledge could spot a mile off.

Where's it going? Surely no paper is going to run that tripe?

TwllBach · 19/03/2012 17:07

Genuine question - is that not illegal? I assume MN owns copyright of whatever is written on their site, and can quote their users in articles, books etc, but can anyone do that?

NarkedPuffin · 19/03/2012 17:07

Seriously? Please stop giving them the publicity.

Please

It's a massive case of Don't Feed the Troll'.