Reply to Justine

[TheOriginalFAB]

The first objection I'm afraid I can't really buy - Most of the UK population uses Facebook. Most Mumsnetters use facebook. It's a bit mad to object to facebook on principle - it's like objecting to people.

This is just daft and is irrelevant whether you buy it or not. Just because "most of ths population" use FB doesn't mean everyone on MN is going to like it. It is like saying you don't buy that some people won't eat meat as the majority of the population are not vegetarian/vegan. And it is nothing like objecting to people

The second objection I just think is misguided, as I've explained. Users' privacy is no more compromised by this button than it ever was.

It might not be "no more compromised" than before but the point is it is much more visable now and before people might not have been aware of the link button but now they are and they don't like it.

So should we change something because some people on this thread dislike it even if we think they are mistaken to dislike it? Even though what they are objecting to is already in place?

You may think we are mistaken not to like it but we are part of MN and without posters you just have a website with adverts no one sees. And the fact that it is already in place is not the issue. Before lots of posters weren't aware of it so couldn't object.

I've been doing this long enough to know that new things are never well-received - but it doesn't always mean they are bad.

That comes across as patronising and lots of posters are telling you this is a "bad" idea and lots of people don't like it.

For me this is a huge loss as I feel unable to discuss something I would have appreciated help with and that makes me feel sad. And namechanging doesn't work for me as someone always guesses who I am and outs me.

Never, aitch. Ads annoy me, so I don't click on them because I don't want to be seen to be encouraging them.

It is ironic that a move to encourage more ad revenue for the site may in fact push people into changing their settings in order to see no ads.

i don't click on them either, biscuit, i would if i was interested in anything they sell but am not quite the demographic but i do accede to their being displayed because they will get some money for that. but if you and i can manage not to click on them ever, why the big worry about the accidental click of the even smaller fb button?

Aitch I have tried to explain a number of times why this is a problem for me. It's all very well to say you think I'm enjoying flipping out, but I'm not. You are dismissing my concerns as stupid, because they aren't concerns to you, which isn't fair.

Before Thursday, there was zero risk of me hitting a "like" button - mine was hidden.

Then it suddenly appeared (without warning or explanation), and has been set up in such a way that a single mistake could post a thread I'm on onto another user of my computer 's Facebook page.

Which I wouldn't realise at all until it had gone out in all their feeds and might be looked at by any number of people who know them personally.

I don't think it's fair to say I'm having a "flip-out", or that I have insulted anyone in mumsnet hq, or have been rude to anyone, because I haven't.

And if respect is a two-way process, it should go two ways. I haven't hidden ads before, I haven't had a hissy-fit and deleted all my posts, I have expressed my concerns and was first ignored, then given wrong information (about what cancel means - it doesn't mean cancel ), then told that the only way to be safe on a shared computer is to delete all my cookies (which is a pain in the arse) and have still not been given completely accurate information about how this is going to be dealt with.

I accept it is difficult because of holidays. But it went live on Thursday, it still doesn't have a "are you sure" option, so accidental "liking" is still possible. So I have done the only think I can to protect myself, and blocked pop-ups as an option to hide the like button. If I can customise hiding it (as I have hidden the drop-down button), then I'm happy to stop using the ad-blocker on Mumsnet.

But at the moment when even Tech admitted they don't know exactly how the Facebook button works, I'm not happy to risk it.

By the way, did you say CHRISTMAS DR WHO?

Where the hell did you get that?

And is it good?

but things change, if mn had remained the same as it was when it started out it would never have become the force that it is today, it would just have been justine and carrie chatting to themselves under various aliases.

no doubt about it, the roll-out has been a cock-up. an iced one, i think Helen said. and she has apologised nicely for it and said that tech is working on a more 'are you sure? are you really sure?' template. so it's the continuing anger that i find utterly baffling (rather than stupid, which i don't believe i have said). like you say, this has been going on since thursday. HQ has told you why there have been delays in dealing with it, but that they are dealing with it. why so cross still? (even with me, and i don't think i've addressed a single post to you).

it is EXCELLENT. [happy crying]

I'm not continually angry though . I've even changed my name.

I'm just (sort of) justifying my use of ad-blocker, as your comment about respect upset me a bit. I have a huuuuuuge amount of respect for Justine and Mumsnet, which is why this being such a cock-up (as Helen said) has surprised me so much.

And I haven't been mumsnetting (apart from this thread) since Thursday (which does show I was genuinely worried, not just hissy-fitting for fun).

You would think my house would be clean, but sadly not.

I can't wait for Dr Who!

that is true, you are not so pissed off any more, but as i understood it this was primarily because you are adblocking.

tbh from what i have seen there are always cock-ups whenever HQ introduce something. and if not a cock-up then an uproar and some compromise has to be reached (which they have already offered with removing the button from sensitive issues). we always muddle through... that's why i don't get all the angst... it's always okay in the end. (just like Dr Who).

No, no, it's not because I'm ad-blocking, it's because I'm Facebook-button-blocking .

Which is all I asked for on the very first post I posted about this. I was happy when I could hide the dangly thingy [technical term ], I thought I could just ask nicely and hide all the like buttons as well.

I only got pissed off in the first place when they wouldn't tell me if I could or not, and it sort of went a bit downhill from there .

I do try not to shout at Helen, and I never shout at Olivia or Tech because I might need them one day

isn't the button-blocking a side-effect of ad-blocking? i am getting confused.
the only time i am tempted to ad block is when they have those freaky moving ones like something out of a harry potter book. then i admit i am sorely tempted.

I don't really know .

All I know is that the facebook button isn't there any more, and even when I experimented and showed the drop down dangly bar thing, there was no Facebook share/like button on that either.

The ads disappeared at the same time, but I'm not quite sure whether I did one thing or two.

And it keeps flashing up a little icon in the corner telling me it's blocked an "information request" from Facebook - which means they must, somehow, using the kids' Facebook use, know this computer uses Facebook and must be taking information from it every day .

I don't really care what I've done as long as it works (and I've caught up on loads of tv programmes I've missed while not mumsnetting, so it's turned out to be a good weekend ).

I am beginning to feel a bit Big Brother/KGB paranoid about Facebook though, whereas before I was just a bit meh. I've just read a thread about Facebook Timeline so will have to talk to the kids about that too.

Sorry, alcohol makes me wordy . Feel free to ignore. Night.

night night! am off to see how much of the killing i can get through before falling asleep... twelve minutes is the average before my eyes start closing and i am reminded that i can't actually understand danish.

Aitch I think this was in response to me:

"why the rush to assume that they're out to claw profit out of us above all else? they've never behaved like that before. but they do have costs, and we do get to play here for free."

MN is a business, with staff, of course they need to make money. I did express a sincere hope that they had made some from this arrangement with facebook, because the benefits would seem to be rather one-sided. I am dissapointed that they have not.

As you've said, it's not cricket to move discussion away from this forum, but that is exactly what MNHQ are encouraging. Also they risk losing revenue as many of us are finally prompted to switch to google chrome or firefox to eliminate that pesky button.

QS it's up to HQ what they do with these buttons, but if you want to hang out here as well as demand that they be available to accede to your wishes regarding any changes they make, someone will have to pay for it.

But they dont accede to my wishes, Aitch!

I am quite possibly a lone voice as I object to the button for totally different reasons! I dont share my pc. I know I wont accidentally click on a button.

No No NO. MY objection is on a more philosophical note.

I read thread after thread here (and post on many) which are very sensitive in nature, relating to health, problems with parenting and relationships, and I morally object to turn these threads into entertainment on par with a youtube video clip, for others to post on their, and other peoples walls, to point and say "look at this, totally mad woman with stooopid badly behaved kids and a drunk husband, why the EFF cant she just sort her life out" etc. Behind her back. Some of you say this happens anyway, as people can link thread. The bif fat "Like" button is condoning this, rather than urging people to be a bit sensible with what they deem appropriate to share.

Seriously. This is what I think. And this is what I dont like. And this is why i have blocked everything I can for the moment.

I refuse to sit her and let the big F button remind me that the support side of the site has sold out to they big fb like. It pisses me off.

But I dont object enough to flounce. I rather block and keep my head in the sand with regards to things I dont like.

i run an fb page on blw, and sign up to various other fb sites. there are links posted to forums all the time, and shared and re-shared as they come up. i think this is what HQ imagines will happen, that some of the excellent (for example) bfing advice will be highlighted by bfing pages, weaning advice by weaning pages, support for x, y or z by x, y or z pages. thus driving approximately new like-minded fellow parent members to the site, which is what a growing business needs.

the idea that it's the same as posting a funny youtube clip is quite incorrect, except insofar as the type of arsehole who would do would already be doing it by cutting and pasting. but i've never seen it... i've seen people cackling about argumentative threads (which as i say is not cricket imo), but never in my life have i seen anyone rip the piss out of someone's pain.

and if they do... for the first time ever we can actually observe it happening and make our point as to its lack of good taste on the actual thread. so it will stop.

Aitch, but do you agree that not everything is suitable to share between sites?

I totally see the benefit of sharing breastfeeding advice.
However, when you see the mentality of some posters, (axe wielding harpies ), how people mock net mum members, and the flaming that sometimes go on, well, certain posters would love a wider audience for their venom, and to "show off" to friends and family on facebook.

But like you say, now you have a tool to track and keep an eye out. Should be interesting......

certain posters already have used blogs in this way and becuase that had nothing to do officially with MN it didn't fall under HQ's remit. this way, i wonder if HQ would also be obligated to take action when it can be demonstrated that members are purposefully linking to FB to be cruel? i agree, it shoudl be interesting to see how it all pans out.

Bobbin - I made it clear that those questions were general ones.

Right, for shared pcs. Why do you not have separate profiles? Or how about just turning the damned thing off when you're done with it and that way you are automatically logged out (unless you have ticked the thing that says "remember me")? I'm sorry but if you decide to share your pc with your family and friends and don't bother to get separate IDs or log out of facebook/Mumsnet/email then that's your problem, frankly.

IAmPissedOff - name too long to copy sorry - you said that your teenagers might not have logged out of their facebooks? So get separate profiles, when you go onto the laptop/pc you just switch user.

As for hitting buttons by accident - well words fail me frankly. You must hit buttons by accident ALL the time, how annoying for you. But as plenty of people have pointed out, MNHQ have said they will fix it so that it is a two-step process. If you hit it by accident TWICE then get your bloody iPhone fixed.

I just clicked on Like, it came up with a box asking if I wanted to 'unlike' or post onto facebook. I unliked it again. Checked facebook - nothing there.

So I think that solves your accidental clickers and the "I might be logged into someone else's facebook".

But I really think, and I know this will offend but hey ho, that if your family are constantly dipping in and out of each other's facebook by accident, then you cannot be that arsed about protecting your online identity. Because, yes it requires a little effort to make sure that they/you are logged out but that's what you need to do when you share computers or laptops. To demand that MNHQ take off an app just because a few people can't be arsed to log themselves out of their own, or other peoples, facebook accounts is just flipping crap.

The Like button now appears to be already a two-step process so if your ultra sensitive phone/laptop gets click-happy and clicks twice then you will have to sort that out won't you? Because surely it would be doing that on every other site you visited and it would be a friggin pain in the arse. Again, if you are happy to have a click-happy phone then don't expect MNHQ to cater just for you.

Problem over.

Quint - your problem I understand much more. Yes it isn't nice when people link to threads and talk about you behind your back. MNHQ I have noticed, haven't put this button onto relationships threads or other sensitive threads.

It's a risk though and as you say, it makes it easier for people to discuss these things on facebook. However I would much rather it was discussed on facebook than on secretive sites or blogs that I cannot access. I think people are much more likely to be careful what they say on facebook, where all their friends can see and even share the link with their friends, than they are on a closed site or forum. From what I have seen, when people have linked to threads on facebook they usually discuss Mumsnet in general or the thread in general rather than individual posters. I think on a public forum such as facebook people are aware that discussing individual posters is unfair and runs the possibility of the person doing the bitching, being turned against.

Mumsnet is a business, not a charity and I understand that they make decisions based on business but they do have the decency to reply personally to critcism, to take on board comments and to make changes which is more than most other websites would do. At the end of the day, this button might produce more members, bring in more advertising revenue, etc. So it makes sense economically. Many posters here run their own businesses, I wonder how far they would go for the sake of a few of their customers when on the other hand they could attract so many more new customers? I don't think MNHQ deserves the slagging off it is getting!

agreed, sircliff.

Is that a first Aitch?

lol

fuck me it's chilly in here today!

hahaha.

anyhoo am off to watch ANOTHER santa give more plasticky shite to my kid... wha's like us? god bless us, one and all.