Reply to Justine

[TheOriginalFAB]

The first objection I'm afraid I can't really buy - Most of the UK population uses Facebook. Most Mumsnetters use facebook. It's a bit mad to object to facebook on principle - it's like objecting to people.

This is just daft and is irrelevant whether you buy it or not. Just because "most of ths population" use FB doesn't mean everyone on MN is going to like it. It is like saying you don't buy that some people won't eat meat as the majority of the population are not vegetarian/vegan. And it is nothing like objecting to people

The second objection I just think is misguided, as I've explained. Users' privacy is no more compromised by this button than it ever was.

It might not be "no more compromised" than before but the point is it is much more visable now and before people might not have been aware of the link button but now they are and they don't like it.

So should we change something because some people on this thread dislike it even if we think they are mistaken to dislike it? Even though what they are objecting to is already in place?

You may think we are mistaken not to like it but we are part of MN and without posters you just have a website with adverts no one sees. And the fact that it is already in place is not the issue. Before lots of posters weren't aware of it so couldn't object.

I've been doing this long enough to know that new things are never well-received - but it doesn't always mean they are bad.

That comes across as patronising and lots of posters are telling you this is a "bad" idea and lots of people don't like it.

For me this is a huge loss as I feel unable to discuss something I would have appreciated help with and that makes me feel sad. And namechanging doesn't work for me as someone always guesses who I am and outs me.

BloodyWedding - in theory you can just delete the Facebook cookies and leave the others. The problem is that it isn't easy to see which ones relate to facebook all the time. If you use a browser like Chrome, you can open an 'incognito' window, and log into facebook with that. That will stop any cookies being carried over to other browser windows, so you could delete all your cookies once, and from then on only use Facebook in the incognito mode, and you should be ok.
Other browsers have similar 'in private' modes too.

Bloodywedding - you need to make sure that you are logged off FB its not enough to just close the window.

For Apple Mac people who use Safari, you can download an Extension called Facebook Blocker which will remove the Like button too.

General questions:

1. If you are so paranoid about being outed in rl, why are you friends with so many Mumsnetters on facebook?
2. As Mumsnet is so googleable, often appears in the national press, discussed in other forums and blogs and linked to by mumsnetters on facebook, what makes you think that this 'Like' button will make such a huge compromise to your rl identity - it is already compromised!
3. If your iphone/pc randomly presses buttons when you hover over them surely you would have fixed it by now or else you'd be clicking on ads, links and other random stuff.
4. If you share your laptop/pc and are so worried about your MN identity, wouldn't you take steps to ensure that it was safe rather then relying on Mumsnet to do it for you?

As I said before, isn't this about taking responsibility for your own internet safety? If you are posting very sensitive information on a public forum that you would hate your family to find, then I suggest you get a little more internet savvy to keep your details private.

That's all.

Well, in fairness SirCliff, that is what the thread is essentially about: a discussion of Facebook's predatory nature and of the ways of using software to secure yourself when using a site that has bought into Facebook. As Mumsnet evolves, so do the privacy strategies we need to adopt when using it. It used to be just a case of being careful what you say. Now it is a case of downloading anti-commercial software. I've learnt some valuable stuff here about Chrome's privacy facilities.

All you really need to do is log out of facebook. Then next time you log in, just don't tick the box that asks if you want it to remember your details for next time.

If you are logged out of facebook then even if you should accidently click on the Like button whilst hovering over it, it will not show on your wall.

The anti-commercial software is very handy and useful to know, but some people are getting confused over what you can and cannot see on facebook.

And some people think that this is a bridge from their rl identities to their MN names - which is pretty much impossible as that bridge already exists and has existed due to the very public nature of Mumsnet.

@MmeLindor

Not sure about icing and cock in the same sentence though...

Oh no, do I need to again?

redlac - thank you my Like button has now disappeared too.

Can't help but think that the people who have explained how to block adverts aren't going to be overly popular at MNHQ given the whole point of the "Like" exercise was to maximise the mn audience for the benefit of potential advertisers....

my pleasure JKSLtd

Although, Cliff, that doesn't help those who share computers.

Yes, Helen. You may blush for putting that image into my head.

I've been following this with interest as had voted with my feet and de-reg'd but now have been able to install google chrome, adblocker, facebook blocker so not only no 'like' button but no ads so thanks mners for this.

I think this has been handled really badly by MNHQ, not tested properly, no forewarning, applied retrospectively to threads including sensitive areas such as lone parents, teenager and so on, never mind the fact that it doesn't work properly, is not 2 clicks as it should be etc

Many queries such as the very valid (imho) ones raised by Iamfuckingpissedoff and many others have been ignored and one is left with a feeling that MNHQ doesn't give a shit which is quite to some of us and disappointing as it would be with any business. Yes, we can bugger off elsewhere, MN does not need us etc, I do understand that, but a lot of goodwill built up over years and chucked away instantly seems shortsighted, irrespective of the 'rights or wrongs.'

People have posted on here when it was one thing (ie before fb v popular or before like button for example) then it has changed to something else and MNHQ are refusing to delete old threads/posts. When MN was much smaller then perhaps searching previous posts under a user name was more appropriate than it is now, given that MNHQ seems to be accepting that we are now all internet/facebook entertainment fodder?

MNHQ could give people the option, in the light of new changes, to delete previous posts/ threads they have started and consider incorporating a more 'private' support area in an 'off the beaten track' type way (which incidentally I can't find )

Hiyule, did you not see my post earlier on this evening? Please scroll down if you missed it.

And we are certainly not refusing to delete old posts/threads. Are you saying you asked for this - and we said no?

That was a pretty gracious apology Helen .

And I do truly apologise for going on and on about it (I am boring myself at this stage).

I do think that people who are happy to use Facebook, who are happy to live a lot of their life online really struggle to understand why some of us don't, why some of us are very careful about anonymity, and why some of us even don't want people who live in our house to "eavesdrop" on our computer use.

Many people use Mumsnet for fun, for a laugh, they drop in and out of Mumsnet, Facebook, and other "fun" sites. For some of us, though, unfortunately, Mumsnet is a place where we could talk, and share views, and get support for very serious real life issues.

For me, it isn't the random googling, the recognition online, it is the home security issues which were the problem. And the questions I asked at the beginning turned out to be actual problems for me. I got frustrated in not being able to get an answer.

Before Thursday, I had no Facebook button. I don't use Facebook and so wasn't aware of how much information is automatically shared. Now I know - and will be very careful.

A warning would have been nice. And SirCliff - the worries you outline weren't my worries at all (1 and 2 don't apply, 3 and 4 are mostly due to me not having a shiny new laptop, sadly) - I'm not overly concerned about the type of security issues you talk about (though I still think that the topics excluded should be widened, iyswim).

No need to apologise, IAmNotSoPissedOffAnyMore.

'Tis enough to see you're not IAmSoPissedOff any more

Oh, Helen, just one quick question (sorry) - when Justine comes back, and when you all have a bit of time, could you maybe have a look at the topics and have somewhere where we can post to ask for topics to be excluded?

There are a fair few that are pretty sensitive, I would think.

And I think a "support" area might be a very good idea - a bit like OTBT, ungoogleable, but maybe more permanent?

Oh, and by the way, hiyule, Off the Beaten Track is here. It's under 'Other Stuff' on the Talk Topic page.

Cross-posts .

See, I'm just happy because my like button is gone. My pages are all shiny and clear.

I might have to celebrate with a completely new name (but I have no idea how to start thinking of one of those).

see the thing about goodwill imo is that it cuts both ways, if you expect it from HQ you must also show it to them, and that would mean not putting in adblocks (because how else are we contributing to this free service?) and not treating Justine etc like crap every time they fuck up or change things. why the rush to assume that they're out to claw profit out of us above all else? they've never behaved like that before. but they do have costs, and we do get to play here for free.

I hate to say it but getting your old posts deleted isn't foolproof. I'm not entirely sure how BoardReader works but I have just managed to read a message which has always read 'message deleted by mumsnet' since I first saw it, over a month ago (I believe it was only visible on the MN site for a few minutes).

I think you'd have to be very unfortunate for this to happen by chance but there is a lesson to be learnt about how very little on the internet is truly gone even after it is deleted.

helen yes I did see your post and I appreciate you are doing your best at firefighting, particularly on your day off, although the MNHQ presence on this thread up to that point was virtually non-existent.

Yes I emailed MNHQ several days ago when I de-reg'd asking them to delete previous posts and to date have not received any reply.

I was using MN quite a lot, started many threads and contributed etc and I've always enjoyed my time here very much. I took a calculated risk that yes I could well be identified by other MN users but they could never be absolutely certain it was me IYSWIM. Of course I could be also identified potentially on other linked websites but that was even less likely was my calculated guess. I have never told anyone in RL about my MN habit.
BUT if I accidentally clicked on the 'like' button, that would be completely different for me (and probably others like me although I accept I may be the only freak one) because it would out me as an MN user to people as well as identifying a thread I had looked at (and most likely contributed to or started) and FOR ME that changes the level of risk entirely.

Also you seem to accept some areas are sensitive (eg relationships) which have no like button, but not others (eg lone parents.) OK lone parents could now chose to post in relationships instead but you have applied the 'like' button retrospectively to all threads in those areas many of us have said we consider sensitive, which I do not think is fair to your users.

thanks Helen for the OTBT link

@hiyule

helen yes I did see your post and I appreciate you are doing your best at firefighting, particularly on your day off, although the MNHQ presence on this thread up to that point was virtually non-existent.

Yes I emailed MNHQ several days ago when I de-reg'd asking them to delete previous posts and to date have not received any reply.

Right, I'll check our logs and see what happened, hiyule

I hate to say it but I agree with Aitch.

And what about people with shared computers? For Heaven's sake, are these not adults? If you share your pc then you are responsible for making sure that you are logged out of email, facebook and whatever else you've been on! If you think that your family will look into your facebook account and click on links in your newsfeed then surely that is a sign that you need to take your security a little more seriously? Surely you cannot complain that MNHQ are endangering your anonymity on Mumsnet when you can't be arsed to take a few simple measures at home to protect it?

If you don't know how to use facebook then perhaps you shouldn't really be on it? Just a thought? After all, everything you have ever posted on facebook is never really deleted - it's out there for all to see. If you value your anonymity so much, you would take the appropriate measures yourself and not expect others to do so for you.

thanks - but don't do it on your day off have a and mince pie I say