Ahoy hoy mnhq - you aren't going to do anything about AIBU, are you?

[bibbitybobbitybloodyaxe]

You are sticking your fingers in your ears and going la la la and pretending not to notice that aibu is just awful?

I agree with Jane - it has legitimised bullying. People go on to AIBU threads looking for a good argument in a way that they don't with chat - it is accepted that argument (as opposed to reasoned debate) is invited. I don't recall hectoring posters being acceptable in the same way before AIBU.

Of course the site has changed over the years but I think AIBU has had an impact on who the site now appeals to. On some days there is little parenting advice at all and multiple threads that read like Daily Mail editorials.

bullying may well be seen to be 'allowed'

I don't bully.

You don't bully.

Why is that?

It is because we are not bullies.

You can create all the spaces that you like where it is seen that bullying is 'ok'

Only bullies will take advantage of those spaces.

I agree the problem is not AIBU, the problem is bullying. However since the AIBU topic has been here the site has attracted more bullies and less people prepared to stand up to bullying elsewhere on the site. It's still just about possible to find good information on the site but there is less of it. The site has wider appeal now and that's good for the owners' pockets, they aren't going to change that. However deleting the threads after 3 months would at least give some sort of message about their value and perhaps indicate that they haven't sold out completely.

Perhaps there also needs to be a you are being a cow emoticon (or a contempt one) for those who don't wish to stand up to the bullies in any other way. It isn't enough to have

God, please no more emoticons! I find that they stifle discussion. People can say truly vile things and put a after it and that makes it all right or others can respond with a or similar and avoid telling the poster why what they have said is unacceptable.

It's good because it keeps the bullies away from the other topics. Imagine if all the proper twats that hang out in AIBU had no where to go, so went around picking on those asking for advice in other topics, especially sensitive topics like relationships.

That's the difference, I think. Other topics for advice, AIBU for judgement.

[shrug] The bullies are equaly balanced by the twats who don't listen when people tell them they are being twats but simply cry "bully!"

Also, look at the threads where a poster complains about the swearing. These are not always in AIBU but you can guarantee that within about 5 posts someone will tel the OP to fuck off and the language will deteriorate further. Anyone holding the OPs viewed is ridiculed as being a prude and told that other posters have every right to swear as much as they like, wherever they like because this is a website for adults. "bullies" are everywhere if you look close enough.

'You can create all the spaces that you like where it is seen that bullying is 'ok'

Only bullies will take advantage of those spaces.'

Well yes, and they do. That's what I'm trying to say.

'It's good because it keeps the bullies away from the other topics.'

But it doesn't, MrsC. It spills over. And people still bully on other topics. But they then go back to their stomping ground over on AIBU and feel that maybe they were justified, because it goes down just fine in AIBU so why not everywhere.

iyswim
The original plan was to put them all in one place but it hasn't done that and has had the opposite effect.

totally agree with goosey

on the whole people don't tell the bullies their behaviour is unacceptable, though, and hence it becomes the accepted standard of behaviour. I admit to being guilty of this myself sometimes because RL is more important than an internet site. I don't have the time to get into long debates with bullies about their NPD or other disorders. It is sad that what used to be a great site for really informed debate has lost/ is losing that.

Time and time again I see 'well you knew you'd be in for a lashing when you posted in AIBU, so it's your fault,'....' you're pathetic if you can't take it' being the implication.

Every single day this is said on AIBU

I think we are actually in agreement, Jane, really - aren't we? I mean, the core of the problem - Bullies bully because they are bullies. Only a bully would take advantage of a space where they feel it is 'ok' for them to be unkind. Therefore the problem is with them. They are bullies.

I think it is possible to create a 'culture' of bullying. That is probably what is happening here.

but nobody who is not a bully would fall in with that culture and actively be a spiteful bitch to someone.

What you do have is an unwillingness to put yourself in the line of fire when you see it.

I do stand by my view that the problem is not the section of a website entitled AIBU, but it is the attitudes of the people who use that, how they choose to use it and how they choose to interact with others.

But yes, we change that by challenging them when they do it.

No, not really, I don't think we do. You don't think AIBU is a problem. But you agree that it's possible to create an environment condusive to bullying...I think that's exactly what AIBU is, and why it has no place on a support forum, or indeed anywhere.

But yes bullying stems from individuals, we agree there

Every school has bullies in it, not all schools legitimise it

what janepumpkin (janebirkin?) said, and bibbs.

For once I disagree partially with Hecate (eloquently put though Hec, I like the bit about you're not a bully)- there are some people who would seek out an empty room at a party, and certainly many who'd seek out quiet rooms where one can have a meaingful conversation with like-minded people (about camping, arts and crafts, food etc).

AIBU is the festering pustule on the underside of MN- I hate it. It is hypocritically incredibly judgemental and snobbish of me to say this but I don't like the type it brings here.

So there.

Having said that, AIBU does a fairly reasonable job of corraling them all in one place. It cheapens MN when they sneak out into other topics though

I don't remember MN being full of aibu type threads before aibu was started. There were the usual ones,. of course but they were the nasturtiums among the spring onions, or whatever it is, when you plant stuff in other stuff and it stops the nasties taking over.

It was dilute. I think putting it in one place gives it more power

Fair enough.

I guess we don't then. or maybe I don't understand what you are saying, because I am reading what you are saying and it truly looks to me to be basically the same thing I am saying

however, I don't think that a page on the internet has any power to change who people are. Same as when people talk of a 'dangerous road' - well, tarmac poses no danger at all. people cause the danger.

If mnhq deleted AIBU. poooof. It's gone. What would happen?

Nothing.

Those who want to give someone a kicking would continue to do so. It wouldn't change them one little bit.

They don't do it because there is a space on the net called AIBU. They do it because they are sat behind their computer, where it's nice and safe for them to be an utter bitch in a way they never would in real life, because there are actual consequences there (like a smack in the gob!)

I just don't think that we need to do anything about AIBU. It isn't the problem.

Dangerous roads can be those with poor visibility, blind corners etc or a poor surface. There are still bad drivers who can make any road dangerous. But that doesn't mean we need to leave the dangerous roads in their current form.

They can be bad for any driver, however good...iyswim?

I do get what you are saying. Maybe the problem here is I am unutterably pedantic I can be like that sometimes, I'm afraid. I genuinely don't get how something - some inanimate thing - can be responsible, even partially, for how people choose to behave, or that removing something will make people change their personality.

See, when you say that there are things on a road that make it dangerous in itself and affect even good drivers, I think - How many accidents happen if you close the road? none. Because it's the people driving down the road that cause the accidents. So the road in itself is not dangerous because it has no power to cause harm without drivers driving down it.

BUT - if you close the dangerous road on the grounds that it causes accidents - will there be no accidents elsewhere? No. There will still be loads. Because it's about the people. It's not the space, it's not the road, it's all about the people.

I get the symbolism. Remove AIBU to show you all that we don't tolerate this kind of spite on here. I do get that. It just won't work. imo. people who want to sit behind their pc pouring venom will still do so.

But let's not forget that that vast majority of people who come here are nice people, funny, kind, clever. Most people who come here aren't trying to hurt people.

But we could and should all do more to challenge those who are.

I dislike the overuse of the word bully on mn though. There are some extremely rude and unpleasant posts, and some unjustifiable personal attacks. I would say that there us very little actual hounding of posters, because people generally don't tolerate it. Yet bullying is often a charge bandied about by an OP or their odd "I'm going to be different here" supporter in response to vociferous and near unanimous disagreement. Yet disagreement is sure to happen on a board concerned with debate. I'm never sure whether to feel cross or annoyed when somebody comes over all priggish and starts using phrases like "Shame on you", and "Mumsnet at its worst".

A lot of the changes here can be put down to the growth of the site. There are quite simply more stupid people around- whether they be huffy OPs, sanctimonious types who wish to carve out a piece of moral highground, MRA trolls or just rude unpleasant folk. I genuinely don't see a lot of what could really be called bullying though.

Agree BoF

I agree about overusing the term bullying. It annoys me no end.

Yes, good point. Very good point. Perhaps it is less bullying and more spiteful, verbally abusive and bitchy.

Also unacceptable, of course. And equally deserving of condemnation.

You are right that bullying is normally a more sustained campaign than a spiteful exchange on one thread. one fight, one thread of vile remarks doesn't constitute bullying if you define bullying as a sustained campaign of harrassment, but it would if you defined bullying as aggressive behaviour designed to intimidate or upset.

Thankfully, cases of people being followed round the boards by someone intent of giving them a kicking are fairly rare.

Although there are a few that seem to go for someone's throat every time they 'see' them. That comes under bullying, certainly.

oh, and yy to it being ridiculous to trot out the bullying line when someone is simply being disagreed with.

It's a bigger place but the proportion of nasty posters to those with more consideration ought to remain the same, I'd have thought.

I see vociferous rudeness a LOT on AIBU

dismissiveness
trying to be clever by being very flip and short with people
Posting just one word

it's so disrespectful. I mean I've had it recently on a thread I started (not in aibu) where I was being spoken to as though I was actually really stupid, only because I'd missed out some detail which led people to file it under 'incredulous - next'

I was appalled, had I not seen it numerous times before i'd have left the site no question, as it was I glossed over the show offy bits and the dismissers and found the helpful, thought out posts. but it was pretty cack to be spoken to like that.

As soon as I said what my old name was, people were far, far nicer, but you HAVE to present yourself well on here or you get wiped the floor with

and that wasn't even in AIBU; AIBU is so much worse as you're told you deserve it.

That's I suppose what I would term bullying, it's a gang mentality in a sense, not one person singling out another, but a whole bunch standing in front of you saying 'well? who the feck are YOU then, we're not here to help, you know, unless you know the right way to speak'