Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Site stuff

Join our Innovation Panel to try new features early and help make Mumsnet better.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Where did the 'HouseBoy' thread go?

337 replies

ifancyashandy · 11/07/2010 21:18

I went away for a while, was reading from page 25 to catch up and clicked on 'next page and pfft...all gone.

What did I miss?

OP posts:
abr1de · 13/07/2010 11:10

I've been chuckling at Dittany. Hey, David cameron, finish your day early: it's your turn to mop the bathroom. Mr Top Brain Surgeon: leave that patient alone, you need to hurry back to hoover now.

Sorry to all you cleaning professionals, I know you might have liked the earnings you made, but Dittany says we're demeaning you.

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 11:14

Who said it was philanthropic???

Of course poverty will not be erradicated by domestic employment but it makes a critical contributionn. And to compare domestic employment to sending shoes??? Tether, I've seen you on other threads and respect your opinions, but that statement is sheer ignorance.

Domestic employment = productive, income generating activity, contributor to GDP, increases economic consumption both through locally earned wages and remittances.

Shoes to Africa = tat that they don't want. Have you watched that BBC docu on environmental waste to developing countries? If I get time I look for link.

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 11:17

Abr1de

tethersend · 13/07/2010 11:20

"Who said it was philanthropic???"

I did.

Don't get me wrong, Mad- I am not advocating sending shoes! I am using it as an analogy- both things are a drop in the ocean wrt alleviating poverty, although sending shoes is a wholly useless activity, so I take your point about that.

Would you really wave away an anti-poverty campaigner by saying "I'm doing my bit by employing a nanny/cleaner/housekeeper?" Christ, I hope not. That's my point.

StewieGriffinsMom · 13/07/2010 11:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 11:24

No, no. David Cameron, it's ok. You go off for that meeting on the troop surge. The home care specialist will mop tha bathtroom.

noddyholder · 13/07/2010 11:25

Ah but custy you certainly weren't one of them on FB

thatbuzzingnoise · 13/07/2010 11:28

When people employ local staff and abide by local or traditional employment guidelines I can't see much of a problem. I was born abroad in a poor country and I understand that stuff.

I have a problem with employing staff in the Gulf states because the gross inequities in the hiring of staff, the inherently racist ways the national laws are organised and the impunity with which employees are subject is as I have said before, all morally bankrupt.

A few staff benefit generous employers but the majority are living in penury and worse because the laws are shit. It amplifies the injustice of the whole system to me. I don't think any human being should be subject to chance of getting a good employer. The percentage of staff who benefit this way is miniscule.

another poster said taht expats are also victims of having their passports taken off them and having their terms of employment illegally changed when in service. All I can say is the pigeons do come home to roost, don't they. And not all companies do that sort of stuff. Multinationals don't normally for example. Europeans tend to go out there on contracts based on British employment laws and with recourse under British law. It is Arab companies which tend to do keep people's passports and with hold their pay etc. People learn these things after they get out there and cut their jibs accordingly when they find out how the winds blow.

European expats have whole lot less to lose in these situations than the average slave from the Asian subcontinent and south east Asia. Being made redundant for example is a hiccup in our lives but it can be devastating for the worker and the extended family in their home countries.

European Expats are colluding in the abuse of these poor people. last year a large european contractor called in 400 of their migrant asian workers to the canteen for a meeting at 9 am. They told them all to pack their belongings and come back by 11 am. By 3pm they were back on flights to India. One outraged European asked his boss why was it done like that. The response was that some of these men will commit suicide and we don't want that on our hands. many times these men's families have sold the family land or used it as collateral to banks to pay fixers to get them out there and they expect to spend all of their working lives supporting the family to repay the debt. Going home early may sentence the whole family to death.

going out there to benefit from their system means we collude with the intense injustice of the whole system. Despite paying or maid and houseboy well. You can pay your houseboy and maid well because your family is profiting from the virtual enslavement of other people.

tethersend · 13/07/2010 11:30

Fantastic post, thatbuzzingnoise

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 11:32

SGM. On the other thread, we were all being accused of exploitation. What I'm trying to point out is that not all domestic labour is exploitation and not all of it in the UAE is exploitation either, but posters only wanted to see thingsin black and white.

I think, I think that Tethers and I might actually agree on the majority of points ...except for where she accused me of being patronising and the terminology issue.

I can't remember the details of the other thread and now begining to think I'm just enjoying the sound of my own voice as I don't know who I'm arguing with anymore

Come on you cunts

StewieGriffinsMom · 13/07/2010 11:38

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 11:39

yy buzzing I agree. But my point o nthat, and I made it before is that the solutiono is not to stop employing domestic workers.

The solution is ito advocate for their rights. And actually this issue spans across sectors, and there needs to be advocay for employment rights for all, as well as women's rights human rights etc. Not employing them would, in my view, be worse.

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 11:40

god my spelling
In my defence I'm looking after a baby and young dc...

TheBossofMe · 13/07/2010 11:44

tethers - the comments from me were mainly aimed at dittany who did accuse me of exploiting my nanny. Not at you, sorry if they sounded like that.

I'm not accepting the status quo, neither are many expats here, hence not really giving a crap that locals complain we are "spoiling the market" by "overpaying" for services. Nor are many domestic workers, factory workers and sex workers here - the political unrest in Thailand is representative of a lot of things, and exploitation of an "underclass" is definitely one of them.

The comments about intelligence of my nanny is in reference to earlier comments (might have been on original HB thread) about workers being under-educated and lacking a voice of their own. That's the only reason I brought it up. That, and the fact that intelligence is generally something I admire in people, so tend to be vocal about it whosever I see it in (sorry, not v good English there, clearly lacking some intelligence myself ATM).

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 11:44

SGM, that's what you think. But never having lived in the ME, but having lived where locals employed as domestic workers are called houseboy/housegirl etc my point of reference is different and I don't see any racist conotations.

It's similar to how mixed race people are refered to (and refer to themselves) as coloured in South Africa. Thats terminology that's perfectly acceptable there but is viewed as racist elsewhere.

thatbuzzingnoise · 13/07/2010 11:45

why would it be worse? we have to do our own ironing, mind our own children and clean our own houses?

I agree with you that the wrt the other points btw. there are other things which can be done through our own governments and for our governments to support intiatives of those from India, and the Phillipines in pressuring the Gulf states to improve their employment laws but all I can hear is the crickets right now.

I don't think anywhere I said to stop employing domestics. I am saying that we are supporting the system by doing so.

I don't sound like am not judging anyone, I hope. I am stating what happens. I don't intend to comment on anyone's individual circumstance. Everyone is responsible for his own actions and have to make their own peace with it.

thatbuzzingnoise · 13/07/2010 11:46

why would it be worse? we have to do our own ironing, mind our own children and clean our own houses?

I agree with you that the wrt the other points btw. there are other things which can be done through our own governments and for our governments to support intiatives of those from India, and the Phillipines in pressuring the Gulf states to improve their employment laws but all I can hear is the crickets right now.

I don't think anywhere I said to stop employing domestics. I am saying that we are supporting the system by doing so.

I don't sound like am not judging anyone, I hope. I am stating what happens. I don't intend to comment on anyone's individual circumstance. Everyone is responsible for his own actions and have to make his own peace with it.

now i better go do some work.

thatbuzzingnoise · 13/07/2010 11:46

sorry about double post. slow network.

toccatanfudge · 13/07/2010 11:48

hmmm - I agree with you MM on the coloured terminology in SA (indeed I've wasted too many hours trying to explain that on MN LOL). But houseboy/girl does seem wrong......

StewieGriffinsMom · 13/07/2010 11:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

IFancyKevinELevin · 13/07/2010 11:53

www.kalayaan.org.uk/

If it was me, in the situation I would:

Read the guidelines on websites of charities like these and ensure I was doing my bit to treat employees fairly.

Find out what constitutes "fair wages" or standard of living required and match them along with expected benefits.

As an employee of a company that provides the service to me I would ask for assurance that the people employed are entitled to these rights.

I would just stop using the term "Houseboy/girl" as the definition is "domestic servant" which, for me, personally (which is how I started to be known as bitch face viper) doesn't sit comfortably.

But that's just me.

goldenticket · 13/07/2010 12:03

Read a lot of the deleted thread and some of this one. I moved out to Africa and really struggled with the whole expat lifestyle in terms of "staff" i.e. paying people to do things that I could easily do myself. Then it was pointed out that there was no benefit system in place meant that if I sacked the people who worked for me, I would effectively be sending them into poverty. The maid who worked for me was incredibly experienced and proud of how she did her job and through working for expats, she had bought some land, built a house and installed all utilities to the house. She was also putting her children through school (no free education). I paid her a very decent wage and complied with all local employment legislation.

Interestingly, in the petrol stations there, someone fills your car, someone else checks your oil and water and yet another person cleans your windscreen. Again, these are all jobs that in the UK we do ourselves but if this prevents all those energetic young people living a life of poverty and gives them a reason to get up in the morning, how can that be a bad thing? As long as their employer is treating them fairly (and that's crucial, whether you're a windscreen washer in Africa or a cockle picker in the UK), I don't see the problem in the type of work it is.

Have to say I really don't like the term houseboy/housegirl though for all the reasons mentioned.

toccatanfudge · 13/07/2010 12:10

I had to pay someone to wash my clothes, after several months of wearing clothes that looked like they hadn't been washed despite me having spent hours cleaning them I gave up and paid one of the groundstaff at the school I worked at to do it for me.

Then I started walking round in clothes that not only were clean but looked clean

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 12:16

GT..yy. the petrol station thing is quite funny. and someone washes your windscreen too

As I said before, I've taken on board the discussion re. terminology and it's something that I'll explore IRL given the opportunity. The fact that I think context matters in determining whether it as a racist, derogatory term doesn't make me - actually I don't personally use it, I say housekeeper, househelp, cook, sometimes maid etc - (or the millions of people who use it), exploitative, or render us unable to call ourselves feminists, development workers, philanthropists or whatever else we call ourselves.

TheBossofMe · 13/07/2010 12:22

Actually, goldenticket raises an interesting point about exploitation of labour in the UK - the cockle pickers of Morecambe Bay being a terrible case in point. It exists, and its naive to think that this is a problem that's confined to less "enlightened" countries. It isn't. Many many casual labourers work under dreadful conditions in the UK, well under minimum wage in far from ideal conditions, with no benefit/contract safety net and in fear of deportation if they are discovered or complain.

Maybe DD's nanny was right - capitalism is inherently founded on exploitation of one kind or another, and all we're debating is the extent of the exploitation before it becomes unacceptable.

TBH, the worst exploitation I've ever seen with my own eyes was on a plantation in Latam - utterly medieval conditions, no protection, daily violence, appalling pay. Guess where the crops were being exported to? Yup, you've guessed it - packaged into UK supermarket value packaging and shipped over for our delectation.

Swipe left for the next trending thread