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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Where did the 'HouseBoy' thread go?

337 replies

ifancyashandy · 11/07/2010 21:18

I went away for a while, was reading from page 25 to catch up and clicked on 'next page and pfft...all gone.

What did I miss?

OP posts:
IFancyKevinELevin · 12/07/2010 22:33

Quattro, to be fair it was only one person having a pop at you, the rest were firmly on your side.

Have to say you sound like a bloody trooper to me.

I've employed a domestic firm for work in my time as have a lot of women on here.

The majority of people, to be fair, were just disputing the OP's use of the word "houseboy" and the fact that she had deliberately used this with intention to flame. Then, when people expressed an opinion she didn't like, she enrolled friends from another site to stick up for her, and started belittling people on other posts and facebook who challenged her.

Am I right?

tethersend · 12/07/2010 22:36

I never argued against employing any kind of domestic staff. I argued against the idea of said employment being a favour or an altruistic act- In short:

1.Be honest about the exchange of labour
2.Pay a decent wage
3.Try not to refer to your employees as children or possessions

I also said no able-bodied person needs domestic help. You can want it, but just be honest about it.

But I've forgotten all that- I'm making plans to move to Brighton. It's quite nice, isn't it?

tethersend · 12/07/2010 22:38

If only there were some sort of meet-up thread...

noddyholder · 12/07/2010 22:40

i know how strange there was one when it suited

IFancyKevinELevin · 12/07/2010 22:41

It's ace, we are always there visiting my son's god daddies.

Love the parks for the kids on the beach. They are ace.

Wandering round the Lanes aaaahhhh...

Is your name mud then?

Quattrocento · 12/07/2010 22:43

Arf at Tethers. Did you walk around the town with a bag on your head? Did you take it off for an ice-cream?

Thanks Kev and Noddy

I bailed into the houseboy thread disagreeing with the term houseboy as a relic of colonialism

Did some work in a school in East Africa briefly in a vac and the rule was then that we got paid local wages. Does solve the issue, doesn't it? Escept no-one would go if they had a family to support back home.

TheBossofMe · 13/07/2010 02:57

tethers - of course its not altruistic to employ domestic help - its an exchange of labour, much like any other. The point is that it needs to be a fair exchange of labour for a fair wage - which many expats do provide. So its a gross generalisation to assume that all domestic roles involve exploitation of some kind. In my case, I really don't believe I'm exploiting anyone.

Started this morning by showing this thread to my DDs nanny. She read with interest, and then snorted very loudly. When I asked her why, her response was that she found the assumption by some Western women that because she was an Eastern woman she was exploited, oppressed and unable to speak up for herself extraordinarily patronising.

And that anyone who assumed that someone who survived real oppression in Myanmar, was taught English at a secret school, smuggled herself and 6 members of her family over the border, bribing and cajoling as they went, and not only survived but thrived as a domestic worker in Thailand, was unable to speak up for herself and recognise and couteract oppression, was just ignorant and offensive.

She also pointed out that her choices were being a maid, a nanny or a sex worker. Guess which one of those she singled out as really oppressive.

We then got into a whole discussion about whether capitalism is inherently founded on the oppression and exploitation of labour by the owners of the means of production, and whether I felt exploited by my employers since my salary is only about 1/500th of the income I generate for the company. At which point I realised that she is far smarter than I ever will be.

tethersend · 13/07/2010 09:13

"So its a gross generalisation to assume that all domestic roles involve exploitation of some kind. In my case, I really don't believe I'm exploiting anyone."

Err... can you point out where I said this?

Fascinating as the minutiae of yours and your nanny's relationship is, I'm afraid one anecdote proves very little in terms of an argument.

"She also pointed out that her choices were being a maid, a nanny or a sex worker."

Wow. And are you just going to accept that as the status quo? I hope that Nannying was a career she would have chosen from a longer list of options too.

I also found it interesting that you go to great lengths to point out how intelligent your nanny is- why on earth would I or anyone else assume otherwise and need convincing of that?

toccatanfudge · 13/07/2010 09:17

tethersend - irrc TheBoss did mention earlier that many jobs in the country she's living in as an expat are reserved for Thai people. So her nanny's choice would have been limited by government constrictions.

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 09:51

Step away TBM, step away.

As someone who is from a developing country, but has worked annd lived on most continents.... I see the attitudes expressed here all the time, by well meaning westerners. It is offensive, and is based on the premise that people from developing countries need rescuing. It takes away our dignity and pisses us off all the time.

Actually, not wanting to sound ungrateful, we don't fucking want aid, you can keep it. we don't fucking want charity, keep that too. We just want respect and to conduct business on fair terms. Many people you speak to would rather suffer and struggle than accept the charity of a westerner. Domestic work in many of these countriess is a good job and especially when working in a good/prominent home is something that people are proud of.

My mum, who is a well known 'militant' feminist, gay rights advocate, socialist; has worked tirelessly all her life for the rights of women and girls, has raised 10's of millions of £££'s for the cause. She has workers and she calls thm maids, housegirls, houseboys etc. Are you going to sit there from the comfort opf your homes and tell me she's exploiting these people??? What the fuck have you actually done about poverty???

On the other thread the assumption was that I am a white expatriate, and that's the lens through which I was being judged. Jeesus christ, you lot.

Rant over

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 09:52

It's WWB here in my new guise

tethersend · 13/07/2010 10:04

"So her nanny's choice would have been limited by government constrictions."

Thanks for the info toccata, but it has no bearing on my questioning about accepting the status quo. I'm not sure that 'sex worker' is an officially sanctioned job though

"Are you going to sit there from the comfort opf your homes and tell me she's exploiting these people??? What the fuck have you actually done about poverty???'

Blimey MadwoMen- who is this aimed at? Please point out where I have said anyone is exploiting anyone else.

I don't think employing domestic helpers is 'doing something about poverty'. If you believe that to be the case, I think you are deluded- even though you are from a developing country.

I repeat:

1.Be honest about the exchange of labour
2.Pay a decent wage
3.Try not to refer to your employees as children or possessions

Your mum is wrong to call herself a feminist and use the term 'houseboy' and 'housegirl'.

tethersend · 13/07/2010 10:04

Ah... WWB.

toccatanfudge · 13/07/2010 10:08

well in 2003 Thailand did seriously consider legalising prostitution as an official occupation..........

tethersend · 13/07/2010 10:19

Ah. Missed the bit where she said she was in Thailand. Doesn't change my question about maintaining the status quo, though.

nancydrewrocks · 13/07/2010 10:26

I suspect the difficulties in using a term other than "houseboy" is the same as the term "maid".

When I first moved to the ME I loathed the term maid. I considered it patronising and derogatory and swore I would never use it. After 12 months of using the term "cleaner" or "housekeeper" or "nanny" I gave up because nobody has a bloody clue what you are talking about.

My previous maid (NB I don't actually refer to her as "my maid" in real life I call her and refer to her by her name) likes being referred to as a "maid" she feels that the title sums up her role and she has pride in that role as it signifies her position in running the household.

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 10:34

this is why these threads shouldn't be deleted, I can't remember exactly who said what So it's aimed at anyone who said, or thinks that employing domestic cworkers is exploitative. And anyone who doesn't understand that domestic labour is part of the cycle of poverty alleviation. Do you know how much money is sent back home in remittances, in many countries it's more than foreign aid...and a large portion of it proceeds of unskilled labour. I say unskilled labour because in my opinion domestic wirk is actually a very acceptable (don't knopw word to use) form of unskilled labour compared to other forms of work.

It's irritating and offensive always being told what to do, how to do it, what to say, what's wrong, what's right etc by westerners. FFS. For 40 years my mum has worked with governments to formulate policy to emancipate women, to give them equal employment rights, equal property ownership rights, domestic rights, lobbied against domestic violence, started a fund worth £40m that supports the poorest of women set up and run enterprises, is now advocating for gay rights iin countries where they want to institute the death penalty, has recently begun an organisation that works with young women to bolster their self esteem and give them the confidence to enter into skilled employment. You are going to sit here and tell me that because she calls them houseboy/housegirl she's wrong to call herself a feminist. There are times I get irritated with her, because she's so busy fighting for women's rights that she sometimes doesn't spend as much time with us as I'd like. This woman who has selflessly fought for women, girls and homosexuals should not call herself a feminist?

Please. Don't be insulting now. Have a sense of perspective here.

As I said before, I'm willing to be educated on terminology. And indeed I will have this debate IRL. But I think you (Tether) and others arguing that domestic labour is exploitation and not alleviating poverty need to re-examine your beliefs. Of course no one's doing anyone a favour. It is an exchange, a mutually beneficical arrangement. I don't deny that I'm benefiting from th ework they do for me otherwise I wouldn't employ them. And as I've said ad nauseum, I pay and treat them more than fairly, as is ithe norm as far as I'm aware.

This issue of referring to domestic workers as possessions. When you're at work, do you not say "My team". That's possessive, because you're proud of your team and want to express ownership/close association. What's the difference with saying my insert term of choice?????

MadwoMen · 13/07/2010 10:37

I will get off MN before the baby wakes up, I will

Tortington · 13/07/2010 10:43

I have been following this and the other threads with interest as i was one of the gaggle of women in brighton that day.

tethers summation us useful

1.Be honest about the exchange of labour
2.Pay a decent wage
3.Try not to refer to your employees as children or possessions

however as far as i can see, those people with experience of these things on this thread are saying that they recognise it's an exchange of labour

they provide a decent wage and conditions. however when they give examples they are accused of a 'doth protest too much' approach.

therefore would i be right to assert that the only argument here is the terminology of 'houseboy'?

tethersend · 13/07/2010 10:45

I can't do this again.

"You are going to sit here and tell me that because she calls them houseboy/housegirl she's wrong to call herself a feminist."

Yes. I am. She sounds like she has done some wonderful things, but this does not make her beyond reproach. Perhaps it would make more sense to stop using the term 'housegirl/boy' and continue to call yourself a feminist, but you cannot do both IMO.

"When you're at work, do you not say "My team"."

No. I don't. It is patronising, and I have always hated it- in fact, if you do a search, there was a thread on it not so long ago. I say "The staff/team/department". Glad to see you assume I'm management though

"But I think you (Tether) and others arguing that domestic labour is exploitation and not alleviating poverty need to re-examine your beliefs."

I'm not arguing that domestic labour is exploitation.

I am arguing that poverty will not be eradicated by domestic employment. It alleviates poverty in the same way that sending shoes to Africa does- a misguided drop in the ocean.

Such a shame the original thread was deleted- this is just going round in circles.

tethersend · 13/07/2010 10:48

Custy, I don't think it's being very honest about the exchange of labour to pretend employing domestic staff is a philanthropic mission to alleviate poverty, do you?

Tortington · 13/07/2010 10:59

no, that would be singularly unwise, however i am wondering if the term philanthropy has been applied by others, to those who explain that the houseperson has good pay and conditions and sends money home to a poor family.

HopeForTheBestExpectTheWorst · 13/07/2010 11:02

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn on request of the poster.

tethersend · 13/07/2010 11:05

"But I think you (Tether) and others arguing that domestic labour is exploitation and not alleviating poverty need to re-examine your beliefs."

That's what I was getting at, Custy. There was so much more of that on the other thread, so I guess I am guilty of arguing in the wind too.

tethersend · 13/07/2010 11:06

Oh, look. Hope has done it for me.

No, Hope. It's not.