Where did the 'HouseBoy' thread go?

[ifancyashandy]

I went away for a while, was reading from page 25 to catch up and clicked on 'next page and pfft...all gone.

What did I miss?

dp never thought i'd say it but you are bloody honest with your views even though 2 people couldn't be more different than you and i after the sneakiness i've seen this w/e I totally respect that you don't name change or creep around off board

As the story unfolded, the "houseboy"'s situation started to seem grimmer and grimmer. Bussed in from a dormitory, "not allowed" in the compound except for work, what would have happened if they'd wanted to invite him round for dinner? Is that not allowed? How would it be prevented? And home so infrequently as well - I don't think this is the OP's fault but her DH's company ought to make a stand and insist on better living conditions for what are effectively their sub-contractors. It may be normal but it ain't good.

lol....nah noddy, just not my style, and y'know what, I have a grudging respect for you too, you always insulted me in your own name

vive la difference(sometimes)

Personally I am very uncomfortable with the thread being pulled "because this is not what MN is about" and "links to FB". I appreciate Catherine coming back to clarify however I feel unsatisfied with the explanation. I don't use fb but I think we can assume people who know each other on MN discuss MN problems on fb. At least it is very likely and for that reason I don't think it should be a reason to pull a thread, individual posts- yes, but not a whole thread. surely this will be an ongoing issue.

I can't honestly see why discussing whether an expat employer of household help can bring her employee to the UK to work for her there is any less relevant or appropriate to MN than many other threads on here. In fact it was quite interesting, raising as it does several issues regarding the expat lifestyle (being an expat myself from an expat childhood background it interests me), our responsible attitude to the developping world whilst living there and whether it is morally correct or even legally possible to import those conditions into the UK for a holiday period.

Could we have clear guidelines set out on the site outlining conditions under which threads may be pulled for the future? I have looked but not found any. Would that be feasible at all? I would welcome it if the pulling of threads could be referenced to a specific breach and therefore appear less arbitrary.

The thread got tense at times, from the little I saw of it also quite personal; however threads here often do. I have seen threads which IMO were far worse and yet were left standing.

Is this the start of something beautiful!

I love the comparison of MN to Fight Club!!

dittany - not all expats treat their home help like that. DDs nanny lives in our apartment (not in a maid's room, because I wouldn't have made my cat live in there), is paid more than double the "locally accepted wage" for her services, has a contract with set hours and duties, set holiday (4 weeks a year on top of our generous 19 days bank hols), sick pay, medical insurance etc etc - in fact, all of the things I would reasonably expect to provide an employee of similar standing in the UK. She eats at our table when she wants to, but chooses not to most of the time, preferring to go out and eat with her friends (who are all begging me to find them a job like hers).

No, I don't pay her UK minimum wage, but that would be a fortune here - more than senior local executives in my industry, more than teachers, more than doctors. I do pay her enough to support herself, her extended family of about 6 people back in Myanmar, and to save for her future. I also, at her request, pay for her to take classes in English and cooking (the latter for her pleasure, she doesn't cook for us).

She's a refugee from Myanmar, and is only miles away from her family because of the political situation there. Had she not found work in a domestic situation (one of the few jobs open to non-Thais if you aren't hugely highly educated), she would have been sent back across the border. So there would have been no benefit to her if she hadn't found a job doing what she's doing - she would have suffered, so would her family.

I've posted about her before - she's in her situation because of an accident of birth and i have no doubt that had she been lucky enough to be born somewhere with greater opportunities, she would have made so much of herself - she's smart, well-educated and a born achiever. She's with us now, and i see it as part of the deal and, to be honest, a human thing to do to a) make sure we give her oppportunities that she wouldn't otherwise get and b) make sure that she isn't exploited either by us or by anyone else.

Putting lots of noses out of joint here, but I can live with that. Some people here (often British, I'm ashamed to say) should be thoroughly ashamed of how they treat their home help.

Laydees the thread was deleted because it seemed like it was obviously started to inflame. It seems there was a meetup where starting this thread was discussed in the knowledge it would inflame. That's not what Mumsnet's about because generally it causes confusion at best and unpleasantness at worse and quite frankly life is too short. We've no idea what's gone on on Facebook but it doesn't sound good.

So... we will delete any further threads along the lines of these ones and we respectfully suggest folks have a look at the Mumsnet philosophy which states that Mumsnet is here to make parents' lives easier.

Many thanks,
MNHQ

thanks Justine and Catherine for tackling it and for the explanations

thread was too long for me to follow tbh.

I think it should be pointed out that alot of the expats from the Sub continant pay alot of money to agencys or local sponsers,to bring them to the Middle East.My Housemaid was paying her local sponser 5ooBD (700 pounds) a year,just to be here.We now sponser her and she is planning on bringing her Niece over.With the money she earnes she has bought a house in India.If we were to let her go as was not moraly correct to employ her she would be back to paying off her visa,may end up working for a local family who beat them,dont often pay.Children spit at them and made to sleep on the floor.So,no i am not congratulating myself,but Cynthia,with her Hindi cable TV is happier than most.

"Putting lots of noses out of joint here, but I can live with that. Some people here (often British, I'm ashamed to say) should be thoroughly ashamed of how they treat their home help."

This is the crux of the problem theBossofMe. Another human being should not by accident of fate have a decent employee or not.

Unfortunately the employment laws of most of the Gulf States allows all employers to treat their staff with impunity. There is a distinct pecking order of what can happen to an employee in the Gulf. The pecking order descends by skin colour or rather continental origin.

Whites - euro or euro descent
Fair skinned Arabs of non Gulf origin
South East Asians and Black Muslims
Indian Subcontinent

Their wages, protections under the laws and rights as an employee etc. descend with their lists.

A lot of european accommodate this racism by compromising their morals if they had any to begin with.

No one should be subject to impunity because of where they were born and this is what the laws of these countries allow.

Lots of Europeans mix and match their morals when they get there. The develop selective blindness to justify their gain from morally bankrupt immigration and employment laws.

the case of Habib Hussien

interesting light on the topic

No,I agree Buzz,but I dont thik having a pop at Western Expats for employing Housemaid/Boys (who pay alot of money to get these jobs helps.Ratherfight the corner of the Construction workers,no saftey equipment,pitiful pay,transported like cattle in open trucks,working in 42 degrees.They are the ones with truley miserable lives

Springheel why did I make you wee? Please tell. I am usually about as funny as herpes.

It's mine, all mine, ha ha ha ha ha harrrr!

You get the secondary viper award - sounds much more cool in a Kill Bill Kinda way!

fgs dittany. can you please stop seeing things in black and white???
As I said on the other thread, in my experience ill treatment of domestic workers is really not the norm. Whilst I would like to change the world and make sure that the industry is properly regulated, in this instance, I can only take responsibility for my situation and make sure I am providing fair terms and conditions.
I already categorically stated that cheap labour, dormitories as living quarters, bonding etc are unacceptable. But that doesn't mean that employing domestic labour is wrong.

But. In the interest of open mindedness Please tell me what you would do about the millions of unskilled people living in developing countries and willing to work for a living? Short term and long term actions.

and since when was development a bastion of the left?

I would have thought that a robust discussion of domestic employment with first hand examples from all over the globe was an exceedingly useful direction for MN to take. It gets pretty small-minded and parochial on here a lot of the time.

so what have I missed?

Can someone summarise?

Should I bother posting seeing as though we once hired a maid (paid normal local rates - and a gardener at a pittance........at his request I hasten to add).

toccata, please post about your experience/whether you thought it was morally right to do as well.

Camel: WesternExpats also abuse their foreign workers. They also break the minimal contracts which the system allow.

The one day a week which all workers are entitled to have off is abused.

The working hours are arbitrary.

Some 'nannies' sleeping in the children's room - on the floor sometimes.

going through their stuff if they think something may have been stolen.

being able to send her back for whatever reason and getting them banned from employment in the country without judge and jury.

Stuff like that shouldn't be a allowed to any employer.

BUT: The system allows it. The great discrepancy between the haves and the have nots aggravate the basest things in human nature. Not until you live that life can you understand how it can happen.

buzzing. we agree on those points. what I can't agree with is the notion that it's wrong to employ domestic helpers.

More generally though - Why the derision and accusations of smugness and patronisation when posters who do employ home help, and provide fair terms and conditions gave specific examples of how? You can't argue vociferously about how all expats are morally bereft and then not allow them to defend themselves with examples.

Sorry - one handed and no spell check

It was the "norm" for everyone we knew (hardly knew any expats - they were mostly Zimbabweans we knew) that was on a moderate to high wage. Plus many people on lower incomes had distant family members "employed" as maids, they would get their accommodation and meals (usually eating with the family - those circumstances) provided and in return would do the maids work. We didn't have her for long as I lost my job and exH's didn't even cover the rent let alone pay for a maid.

Our maid didn't live with us, we only had a tiny cottage (with a very leaky roof - she used to laugh at our leaky roof and say that despite the fact that her house was smaller and not in such a nice area etc etc at least her roof didn't leak like ours).

We paid her the going rate, she would sweep, (hand) wash the clothes, iron, clean etc etc. She didn't have to do any childcare or cooking though (as we didn't have children and we cooked for ourselves).

We only had a tiny garden, but she begged us to employ her brother as a gardener as he was desperate for work and has he had no experience as a domestic staff was struggling to find anyone to take him on . He got a fraction of what he should have been paid, but I know that after he left us we gave him a reference for another gardeners job which he got (and was paid proper wages).

I had no moral qualms about it. And if I ever lived out there again I would employ domestic staff again too.

Those that lived in bigger houses often had a small "cottage" in the gardens that the staff would live in. They were small and not great, but it was a roof over their heads, and most people I knew made sure they were well looked after.

In a country with high unemployment and little job choice becoming domestic staff is often a lifeline - a source of at least a small wage and an ability to be able to feed their families and get the children educated.

Obviously some employers did take the p*ss and treat their staff like shite, but on the whole domestic staff were treated with respect and the housing adequate - and certainly an offer of a job with a crammed cottage in someones secured grounds beats a shack in highly deprived area.

Friend worked in a village in Malawi teaching biology and was horrified that she was expected to employ a gardener and housekeeper. She was quickly taken aside and told that the village expected her to employ these people so that they - and the village- vould benefit a little from her wages.

Different perspective I guess. That said, I read a very disturbing artivle about young filipina women basically treated as slaves and abused horribly by families in britain.

Interesting subject. Certainly will never enjoy a holiday in Dubai after reading about the Bangladeshi slaves that built it - and made a ton of money for developers and holiday companies.

smallorange, I agree, these cases are uncovered every few years and are truly shocking. I think that is the main reason why the Government reintroduced legislation in the UK earlier this year to make slavery illegal - yes, that's right in the UK, this year.