Where did the 'HouseBoy' thread go?

[ifancyashandy]

I went away for a while, was reading from page 25 to catch up and clicked on 'next page and pfft...all gone.

What did I miss?

It is a hugely unfair draconian system.There is no doubt that many expats treat their staff well and provide them with money etc etc BUT it is hugely unequal and unfair.It is the norm there though and really up to the expats to have some conscience themselves.The monstrosity that is dubai was built by workers brought in, paid a pittance,in order for others to hugely profit. It is wrong on so many levels and I am sure none of these workers would have a clue they werer fodder for their rich employers entertainment following a boozy lunch back home

smallorange - I think some expats live that life, not all. Many of us do our best to pay more than a living wage.

TBH, I treat DDs nanny exactly as I would treat her if I employed her in the UK. Same benefits, same working conditions, with a salary that she was open-mouthed at. I still fail to see how that is exploitation.

I don't shop at Spinneys either. (£7 equivalent for a tub of Total Greek Yoghurt which retails for £1.35 in the UK) Are you Cuh-razy?

thatbuzzingnoise - its really quite different in the Far East. The ME has all kids of additional issues at play, not least the lack of value placed on the role of women in society in general. One reason why we turned down numerous oppotunities to go and work there.

toccata I don't really know much about the school rivalries, parents lived there 20 years ago and I used to visit for holidays sometimes - I was at boarding school in a different country. I do however have fantastic memories of the place. Great fun.
When were you last there? I went about 12 years ago and it had Already changed

TheBoss I gave an example on other thread of a young (22 I think she was) African girl who I got a visa for and took to America with me. She had a proper contract of employment, weekends off, was paid minimum US wage which was over $1,000 a month, she had no bills whatsoever as she lived with us and ate what we ate. I also paid for her to go to adult literacy classes. I also said that the visa alone is like gold dust...I was derided for being patronising etc. You can't win.

I was there from Sep '97 until April 2000. Saw the fall of the country .

Ask your brother about PE - he'll know what I'm on about LOL.

buzzingnoise I think it is important to acknowledge that many of the examples of poor treatment given in relation to domestic staff also apply to most employees in the gulf states.

Many senior employees in the Gulf States have their contracts altered in favour of the employer without notice/are subject to the illegal retention of passports and salary's/bonus's. Employers can, and still do, impose travel and employment bans, they can have you deported and terminate contracts of employment on a whim.

I am certainly not suggesting that this makes it ok but it ought to be recognised that such practises are not restricted to the poorest and most disadvantaged by any stretch of the imagination.

willie - I'm just a bit miffed at being told "shame on you" by dittany, tbh. I really enjoy reading her threads/posts on the feminism boards, but think she's being really naive on this one to suggest that UK minimum wage should apply everywhere.

AFAIK, the min wage was calculated as being the least amount of money a person can earn and maintain a basic standard of living (based on one person one wage calculations, not on trying to raise a family on it). And based on national average costs (eg housing, food, utilities etc). So the cost of living in a country is always taken into account when calculating the min wage.

That doesn't deny that some expats (and even more locals) take the p**s with their domestic help, but I'm not one of them, and I'm a bit that dittany thinks so.

Just calculated that DDs nanny is paid about 4.23 an hour (pounds, not local currency). So that's 75%ish of the UK min wage, in a market where cost of living is less than half. Add on top of that her tax and NI equivalent (which we pay in addition to her salary, many don't bother), her accomodation, food etc, and she probably gets close to min wage in package terms. Just not in cash.

TBH, my DH only earns about 4.50 an hour when he works here (local salary, not expat). So if I had to pay her more, we would actually not be able to afford it (agreement in our family is that if DH salary doesn't cover childcare cost, he won't work) and she'd be out of a job.

Dittany also misses the point that in Thailand, many jobs are reserved for Thais. Working as domestic help is one of the only jobs that Burmese refugees can do legally. So if she wasn't working as a nanny, she would be deported back to Myanmar. Hardly the best outcome for her.

I'm interested to know if dittany and other posters who claim we're exploiting our home help also check the labels of every item of clothing they wear to make sure the are manufactured in countries with decent labour laws. Many retailers in the UK may sign up to fair working practice charters, but few really enforce them. The conditions in garment factories in countries such as Bangladesh (where my father is from) are truly shocking.

And, in case anyone hasn't spotted, I;m really riled about being accused of employing "poundland domestic labour"!

Rant over now!

Buzz,no i dont either.Am in Bahrain anyway

Finally managed to have something to eat today (its about 10pm) so am slightly less riled now. Amazing what some carbs can do to calm me down.

Anyway, did a quick poll amongst some expat friends round here. Vast majority pay somewhere between 3 and 4.50 an hour. Some pay as little as 2 (and got flamed by others for paying so little). However, Dds nanny just told me that the most she's ever been offered by a local family (even a very very wealthy one) was 1.50. That really is shameful.

Back from flogging my houseboy.

TBM, where were you yesterday??? I have been furious at being characterised as an exploiter which is the furthest thing from what I am fgs.

I've had a look at that link to abu dhabi forum posted earlier. I imagine this is what posters who oppose employing domestic workers imagine to be the norm. The ME/UAE is an ANOMALY. It is unique in that domestic staff are imported from elsewhere and denied basic human rights (freedom for one). This is more a cultural phenomenon, where not only is there a lack of respect for women, there is also a lack of respect for people who are less than white, for foreigners etc. This doesn't mean that domestic help shouldn't be employed though. This just means that people(we) need to work through the relevant organisatiuons to apply pressure on govt and instigate a change of culture - we need to address the whole area of labour practice. It's not just domestic workers who have few rights, the problem is rampant across all strata of industry/society. It's a regulatory issue. Let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Yes, there are issues in other developing countries, but as stated earlier, they are the exception rather than the norm. I see nothing wrong with domestic work, and I for one will not be denying someone employment when a. I require their services b. they need to earn a living in order to survive. How could you look at yourself in the mirror with all those people with children suffering from malnutrition...and because of "principle" decide not to provide them with employment????? If you don't employ them, there is no safety net.

TBM and Willie - there is no point in arguing with Dittany on this point - she is so sure she is right, and has little idea of the disruption to the local economy of paying "western" salaries.

I was flamed for paying my nanny in Belgium a net salary of 1500 euros a month, having her live in my spare room with her own bathroom, and all of her social security and medical bills taken care of. It wasn't, apparently, sufficient, for a 22 year old, 10 years ago. My secretary (D had a go at me about this as well) has gross pay of around 2200 euros a month, which works out to be around 1700 net. She has to pay her own rent, bills, travel etc from this.

So not such a bad deal.

not just Dittany, the moral outrage on there was outrageous. as though employees and their families can live off lofty principles fgs. People don't know what they're talking aboiut.

And this idea that only lefties are for development is archaic. I am part of a huge movement that does not advocate for AID, but that supports debt releif and fairer trading terms. Indeed I have found on my travels that people from developing countries tend to be more right leaning than certainly in this country. Generalisation I know..but true.

I've come to this thread late so didn't see the link to the Abu Dhabi forum so not sure what was the point but in the past few years there have been a number of changes in the way in which the most disadvantaged of the workforce are treated which has come about almost entirely because of agitation by the Western expat community.

The promotion of better treatment for domestic and labouring staff is a frequent theme in the western expat press and there are a number of charities with huge expat support that assist the poorest and most vulnerable workers.

There are many people who are just missing the point (on this and the earlier thread). If expats (and other locals) don't employ people to provide domestic services then those it really is a matter of life or death in a lot of Asian and African countries because locals won't be able to feed themselves or their family. Paying someone the equivalent of the UK minimum wage would be equivalent in some countries to paying them more than the President earns. In some countries, word would soon get around that you were a "billionaire" and it wouldn't be too long before your family were kidnapped or there was an armed robbery at your home.

Good god, are you lot still trying to justify paying a paltry salary to your domestic helpers?

Go on, regale us with more tales of what marvelous employers you all are, and how you are helping humanity (loving the idea of not paying too much lest employee's family get kidnapped BTW. Real altruism there).

I'll give Amnesty International a call and tell them how selfless you're all being. I'm sure they'll be thrilled.

Who let tether out of the corral...?

And oi, where's my bitch trophy???

I sold it, Kevin.

Cos I'm a bitch

Been away from thread because- ironically- I went to Brighton for the day

I am not trying to (nor do I need to) justify anything.

tether!brighton is lovely don't be put off!

oooh you viper...how could you show your face?

Hope you turned up on a man powered rickshaw, with your own human fly swatter.

How much did you tip the cha-wallah?

I was getting flamed on the other thread for having in my time employed a nanny, gardener, cleaner and multiple au-pairs. All in the UK and therefore benefiting from protection through employment law and minimum wage legislation, all benefiting from better than average employment conditions ... Dittany told me to clean my own house.

I do, of course, it's just that that advice was so utterly breathtaking in the context of (a) a disabled husband (b) a sixty hour working week MINIMUM (c) two children (d) three cats and (d) an above average income that enables me to pay for help so that I can come on MN ...

... and get flamed for having a cleaner

Do you not think you're being a bit zealous. I mean where does it stop? Should I service my own car? Write my own will?

I would like to make it clear I have no problem with employing anyone in this country and paying them a decent wage etc etc although i do have strong views on the situation abroad where I feel if there is enough money in the economy to import staff from other countries to clean expat homes then the money could be better used/diverted to where it is really needed without the need to uproot families etc.My main problem with this whole thread is that it was started as a bait and a gaggle of women were laughing and bitching offboard while others were debating a serious subject.I know many people here with cleaners, nannies etc and have no problem with them spending their earnings as they please I do however find the expat scenario different.