Decision time - state grammar school or quasi-selective independent school

[Quattrocento]

We truly don't know what to do about DD's secondary education. She has always been in the independent sector and is in year 6 at her prep school. The independent school into which the prep school feeds is nice enough. But we entered her into the 11+ for a state grammar school, and we learned today that she'd passed the exam with a high enough mark to ensure a place. So we don't really know what to do. DD says she doesn't much mind what she does and wants to abdicate responsibility leave the decision to us.

I've made a list of the pros and cons for moving to the state grammar school

1. She gets to mix with a very broad range of backgrounds in terms of wealth BUT it's far less ethnically diverse. I like the idea of DD being able to mix across a broad social/racial spectrum.
2. The state grammar has slightly worse exam results BUT the intake is slightly brighter so the difference might be bigger than it appears.
3. The state grammar school has nothing much happening in the way of sporting stuff and DD is super-sporty.
4. The state grammar school doesn't seem to do much in terms of other out-of-school activities
5. The state grammar school seems to have lower standards of behaviour - lots of children quite badly dressed and swearing etc in a way that made little DD's eyes go round as saucers.
6. The state grammar school is going to save us around £80k on independent school fees. The fees are not an issue now but they would be if I were made redundant (looks nervously at global economic environment).

What do you think?

If schools can't do anything to prepare a pupil for Oxbridge, why the hoo-ha about discriminating against independent school candidates?

Surely there is nothing to fear?

our state grammar is top 20 on those league tables

last year 4 boys out of 22 who applied to oxbridge got in - not good

6 more were 'pooled' but did not get in

depressing

Most teenagers swear. They think it's big.
I think you'd probably feel more relaxed with the independent option.

minicooper

surely that depends on the school size

four form intake means our grammars are not HUGE

27 got offers from Oxbridge this year from my DCs grammar school.

Leeza2's post rather illustrates what I am saying about top grades from private schools.

interesting leeza

my son is extremely driven to the point of egocentrism - maybe it is the right place for him!

True, Ria. Mine was twice that size!

True, Ria. Mine was twice that size!

OOps, dd on my knee felt that was worth saying twice!

'Violethill: "Highly intelligent parents are more likely to have high earning careers."

They're also more likely to have intelligent children. This might also explain why their children tend to do well academically!'

absolutely! I think this is fairly obvious!

I was just making the point that they are also most likely to be in the position of being able to afford to pay if they feel they need to, or being able to afford to live in a good area with good state options if that's what they choose.

Therefore, you are more likely to get a higher concentration of Oxbridge candidates in these types of school. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's the school that has 'turned them' into Oxbridge candidates, because as I said, in my experience, you find the stellar bright kids in any type of school.

If the school can't take credit for their Oxbridge candidates, then why the need discriminate against so-called good schools?

You can't really have it both ways.

That's interesting Violethill.
When I was growing up on a dire sink estate I had a huge chip on my shoulder about independent schools.
Everyone where I lived did. Still do.
Anyhow...the thoery went that just because their parents pay these kids could noty be more clever. In fact, we suspected, they were actually quite thick. Their excellent grades were a result of fabulous teaching etc and utterly unfair.

Hole on my teenaged rambilgs sound like a session of state v private on Mumsnet.

Anyhow...I grew up and sent my own kids to private school where I discovered that inteligent parents do have inteligent kids and said inteligent parents do tend to earn more so can pay fees. Result an unusual amount of inteligent kids in one place even schools like ours whick are not remotely selective.
Therefore I'm not suprised that more indie kids get into good unis.
Must add this has required an enormous amount of chip swallowing on my part.

Eh?

Who has said Oxbridge should discriminate against 'good' schools? (Whatever that may mean)

My point has been that potential Oxbridge candidates can be spotted a mile off, they are in a league of their own, and get into Oxbridge from any type of school. The fact that there is likely to be a greater concentration of them in private or high achieving state schools is likely to be because highly intelligent parents are more likely to have high earning jobs and have the choice of whether to pay for private or live in the catchment for high achieving state schools.

Many Universities look at the average points score from the school as one part of the process, putting the candidate's grades into context.

The two points above are not mutually exclusive you know. There are a lot more very good Universities other than Oxbridge!

Exactly Litchick. And if you are fortunate (and rich!) enough to be able to live in a particular type of area, you would find that there is a core of liberal intelligentia whose children dominate the top sets in the state schools, and of course these are far more likely to get into the top Universities than kids from the bottom sets!

Aint's rocket science is it?!

P.S. Having said that, Litchick, there are of course some children in private that aren't that bright, because earning money and buying into private isn't necessarily linked to intelligence.

Round our way, quite a lot of farming families and local 'self made' well-off (eg builders, plumbers) buy into the local private school. They don't always have particularly clever kids. Of course, with the down turn, it remains to be seen how the profile will change.....

Absolutely - ditto grammar schools.

But there will still be some clever kids in the poorest areas in the poorest schools ( I put up my hand ) and I think that should be perhaps taken into account at admissions stage.
Though if you are clever you should be able to get a decent A level...many a home educate dkid gets them without any formal teaching.
I imagine it's where a kid from a crap school misses out by one grade which could have been tweaked if he went elsewhere.

TBH I don't think all this stuff is really the problem - to get smart but poor kids into good unis you have to get them to apply.

Oh dear, perhaps you should read through some of your own posts on this thread, Violet. You have consistently advocated the notion that students stand a better chance of getting top spots from state schools.

There are only so many univerisity places to go around. If you favour one group artificially, then you are discriminating against the other.

If it is inate intelligence that gets a student into a top university place, regardless of the school they go to, then surely there is no need to factor in the school? Just select on merit/achievement - which is what they do.

And yes of course there are some kids who are not smart in private schools and they of course benefit greatly for one-one help and fab facilities.
I think sometimes we overestimate just how smart you have to be to do most jobs.

ST - I am quite capable of reading the thread. I have not advocated the notion that students should stand a 'better chance' of getting 'top spots from state schools'.

I have talked about admissions processes, and described my own observations, based on lengthy experience teaching in state and private sector, on the profile of Oxbridge candidates. It is my view that Oxbridge candidates stand out regardless of the school they attend, generally, though I don't know whether all Oxbridge college admissions tutors would entirely agree with this, and I suspect that is why they may look at the type of school attended.

Many of us believe that for good courses in good Universities generally (and I am not referring to Oxbridge here) it is entirely appropriate and fair that the University considers the average A level point of the school, in order to get a full picture and place the candidate in context. That is not giving anyone an 'advantage'. It is treating people as equitably as possible. And it is in the interests of the Universities who, if they are good, want the best candidates with the potential to do well on their course.

Actually, you did say that. You told the OP that private may not be the best place to apply for univerisities from etc etc.

If you have since changed your mind, that is good.

ST - you really are very bossy and I'm glad I'm not in one of your classes! No, I haven't changed my mind about anything. Private school may not necessarily be the optimum place to be applying from. Depends on all sorts of factors.

I know what I have said - you just don't happen to agree with it, which is fine!

I am not particularly anti private schools - one of my children is currently in one as I have said on many threads. I think sometimes there are particular reasons, at particular times, why parents feel they need to pay.

Getting into a good University is a separate issue, which should always be about selecting the best candidates with the aptitude and ability to succeed on their particular course. University is an entirely different experience from school. It is the student's own choice (hopefully! - though I have seen some dreadful helicopter parents who meddle in that process too!) and the student needs to have the potential and the ability and desire to study independently.

If Universities feel that it is best ( ie in their interests and that of the student) to consider the context of the school the candidate is applying from, then that's fine, equitable, and good. The only reason people might possibly not like it, is if they think that buying an education should give their child an advantage!

Ha, the personal attacks start. Very telling!

It's very difficult not to when you repeatedly keep telling me that I don't know what I'm saying or what I've written ST. If that's not personal, I don't know what is!!

It's called having a conversation, Violet.

Don't worry, I forgive you for attacking me rather than my posts/opinions.

My view: (without being personal to anyone!)

• Oxbridge candidates are usually in a league of their own. They have the ability to get into Oxbridge from whatever school

• Good Universities (generally) are using a range of factors, including considering the average points score of school) when selecting students.

• They do this to be as equitable as possible, and because they want the best students, regardless of whether they happened to have parents who chose to pay for private. Unfortunately the 3 A grades at A level does not necessarily mean that a student is highly intelligent and has huge potential. It should do, but it doesn't. Therefore Universities are responding to this fact.

• There is likely to be greater concentration of very bright children in state grammars, upper sets of high achieving comprehensives, and private schools. That's because parents who are intelligent are more likely to be able to afford to make the choice to live in particular area or go private. It does not mean that the school has 'made the child cleverer'.

• If you want to pay for private school for particular reasons then that's fine (I do for one of my children). But do not be under any illusion that it will make your child more clever, or that they will have better teachers.

Now, I fully expect that some people won;t agree with me. When you are paying for private, it is very easy to fall into a sense of 'entitlement' - you make all sorts of assumptions about what you 'should' get because you are paying. That's a separate issue, and has nothing to do with getting bright students into good Universities.