Decision time - state grammar school or quasi-selective independent school

[Quattrocento]

We truly don't know what to do about DD's secondary education. She has always been in the independent sector and is in year 6 at her prep school. The independent school into which the prep school feeds is nice enough. But we entered her into the 11+ for a state grammar school, and we learned today that she'd passed the exam with a high enough mark to ensure a place. So we don't really know what to do. DD says she doesn't much mind what she does and wants to abdicate responsibility leave the decision to us.

I've made a list of the pros and cons for moving to the state grammar school

1. She gets to mix with a very broad range of backgrounds in terms of wealth BUT it's far less ethnically diverse. I like the idea of DD being able to mix across a broad social/racial spectrum.
2. The state grammar has slightly worse exam results BUT the intake is slightly brighter so the difference might be bigger than it appears.
3. The state grammar school has nothing much happening in the way of sporting stuff and DD is super-sporty.
4. The state grammar school doesn't seem to do much in terms of other out-of-school activities
5. The state grammar school seems to have lower standards of behaviour - lots of children quite badly dressed and swearing etc in a way that made little DD's eyes go round as saucers.
6. The state grammar school is going to save us around £80k on independent school fees. The fees are not an issue now but they would be if I were made redundant (looks nervously at global economic environment).

What do you think?

No apology /sniff

violet =I agree with all you say.
I don't believe a school can make a child anything.
However I do believe certain environments are conducive to getting the best out of people and some positively hold back. So although school cannot make a child it will have some impact.

Hi, just want to add for Quattro if she's still listening that she might check out the destinations of the current 6th form at both schools? Current guidance at Oxbridge as to call for interview those from markedly weak schools, but it's guidance and not law, and I won't call for interview anyone who isn't predicted our minimum offer as it doubles the disappointment and we never offer less than 3 As (though people who get offers sometimes resit if they don't get the grades).

I really think Violet is right and Oxbridge ability can emerge from any school - we see indy kids ground down by Gradgrindian pressure and state kids ground down by family or friends' indifference - my niece refused to go to Greek club because she felt sure it would be full of geeks, which of course it would, but pretty useful when you are reading classics... she is really able and will be fine despite this.

One final thing - nowadays Oxbridge is not a social club and students produce 5 times as much work as at eg Russell Group universities so most who are not very very high flyers and dead keen on what they are reading will honestly be happier nad may actually do better elsewhere.

Oh, and admissions isn't perfect. We sometimes don't admit the very people we try to find and do admit the odd lazy cove who needs constant cranky warning leters to get off his or her botty.

Admissions at Oxbridge is all based on work samples, a written test, and an interview (or in our case, two) which is not a fireside chat so much as a kind of oral exam. (Why? Because as someone asked they are ALL predicted great grades and most are already holding fistfuls of GCSEs).

I have to agree with Abby when she says this:

"nowadays Oxbridge is not a social club and students produce 5 times as much work as at eg Russell Group universities so most who are not very very high flyers and dead keen on what they are reading will honestly be happier nad may actually do better elsewhere"

Our DD went for the social life & the status but she simply struggled with the work. She had no interest in her subject and no real understanding of how much work she had to do on her own. She believed that as long as she attended her tut each week & handed in essays " her time was her own".She didn't work for collections because " they don't count"

Although she has a good memory, she is not logical, clever or creative in her thinking. She thought all her classmates were " geeks" and couldn't understand why they were in the library all the time and not out partying.

She would have done much better at another good university, where she would have much more teaching and been expected to attend classes, sit exams and hand in work more often. And they woudl have kicked ass harder and sooner. She simply wasn't Oxford material and it wasn't a positive experience for her

NB I can only admit this on Mumsnet, in RL I have to smile and agree with others parents when they say how proud we must be

violet what was your previous moniker? i feel i know you!

Haven't been around for about 16 months Ria, so good memory! Spiritual/philosphy forum?

Even at Russell groups universities, there is no guarantee that getting in is the answer to all your prayers. I see several students each year who have had top marks throughout school, some of whom have been to good grammar schools- and it comes as a rude shock when they get to uni and find they just can't do it. We may offer more teaching than Oxbridge, but a student still has to do most of the work on their own, and it is not just a question of being "good" and hardworking; you have to have a certain level of creativity and maturity to cope at all. If you're not going to enjoy it it makes little sense to be there at all.

Quattro - Do either school do General Studies/insist on GS A level? In which case are their academic results really much of a muchness?

what refreshingly sensible posts from abby and violet.

As for quaTT's op, based on many of your previous posts about schools, I think you should just stick to the private sector. You do always seem to feel so very much more comfortable with it. And a swirling negative cloud seems to circle your head when you speak of state. So for your own peace of mind and contentedness, go private.

Surely Quatt wouldn't have applied if she were that dead set against it?

I didn't say quatt was dead set against it. She might be wavering but I am mentioning very clear tones to posts about private and state.

And it must be quite nice to apply and to know that your child was able to go to both schools, so you chose on merits alone.

Quattro

I got my ds's grammar results on the same day as you.

I will be sending my ds to the grammar because it will suit him as it is strong on maths and science, which are his areas. He sat a combined test for 2 state grammars and we put the one with the lower A level results down as out first choice because we wanted a science school and it has a reputation for excellent pastoral care.

As he has got in to a state school we will not be considering the single sex independent anymore, even though it is a much better school. The main reasons for this are distance and the massive financial pressure it would put us under.

When my daughter sits the tests, I think we are much more likely to pick the independent school, because it will suit her much better; she will benefit from the social element and the extra curricular activities.

If you can afford it then you should pick the school you think is best for your daughter. The independent vs. state is irrelevant; you are choosing between two individual schools, not 2 school sectors. I can't see in your case what is to be gained from the grammar place, other than money not spent.

Exactly MillyR.

People make the best choice for each child, within the limitations of their circumstances at that particular time. We all bring our own personal history to it too. I went to a (not very good) comp, DH went to a (very good) comp and we both went on to good Universities, got good degrees, good careers. That probably makes me feel more confident in the state system than if I'd only experienced private. I get the feeling Quattro is wavering, but her 'comfort zone' is private, and I'm guessing she went to either private or highly selective school herself. With her history, I might feel the same as her.

Any school is always going to involve some element of compromise, because there is no perfect school.

If I were to create my perfect school....

It would be big enough to offer a broad range of subjects, but small enough to provide superb pastoral care. Class sizes... tricky one this as different children suit different things.. probably between 15/20 depending on subject.Having said that, my ds was in a class of 12 which he found limiting, but loves his classes of 24. The school would be located in acres of beautiful grounds (Xenia will agree on at least one point!) within a city so that there would be plenty of vibrant cultural opportunities on the doorstep. Buildings... have to be the best bits of each of my dd and ds's schools.... dd's has some glorious buildings (mainly the Head's study and public areas.. there are some grottsville mobile classrooms out the back!) .... ds's has superb labs and other facilities but all encased in deadly dull 70's exterior.

As for that most important resource, the teachers... well, I would cherry pick 3 of my dd's teachers who I rate as exceptional, throw in a number of my ds's inspirational teachers and persuade a few of my excellent teacher friends to work there. Anyone mediocre, boring, unable to cope with a challenge or looking for an easy ride would be out. Oh and I'd have to resurrect my probably long-dead A level English teacher, who awakened my love of literature and inspired me to study English for a first and higher degree... so maybe there's a lot of truth in that saying, 'All it takes is one good teacher....'

I'm still listening - thanks for all your posts. I'm sure you are all correct about comfort zones and it being a bit of a leap of faith for me. I was educated in the independent sector but DH was educated in the state sector. He is much more comfortable with the idea than I am.

I've checked out the destinations of school leavers, and the independent school has roughly twice as many going to Oxbridge but broadly similar after that.

I do think that maybe I am worrying too much about it actually and what will be will be. The state grammar school parents we went to visit last night were absolutely ecstatic about the school.

Still thinking ...

Q have not read whole thread, but your OP seemed to indicate the only positive in the grammar was that it was free. If you can afford the fees, the indie sounds better for your DD.

Violet - again I was interested to hear what you say ie that you have faith in the state system because of your own experiences.
DH and I, both state educated, have found our faith bruised shall we say.
Don't get me wrong we both 'succeeded' on an academic level but it often felt like a battle rather than a pleasure.
Although TBH, much of my ojection to the curent system is to do with the NC and SATS and the general lack of flexibility given to teachers and has little to do with my own pre-historic experiences.

Litchick- It sounds as though your own experience was of a real 'sink' school on a rough estate. Mine wasn't as extreme. I was entering secondary education at the phase when grammars were being phased out and comprehensives introduced - it was a sort of cross over period and a number of pupils were still being 'creamed off' by the 11 + so in that sense my 'comp' was probably generally lower ability rather than genuinely containing the whole spectrum. Having said that, for many of us it didn't hold us back at all. There was a 6th form, people did well and went to University. I guess it's all swings and roundabouts anyway. I probably had to more of a self starter and independent learner than some of my grammar school counterparts - but that's no bad thing. Sometimes you have to think longer term - jobs, and life in general, require a range of skills, not just exam passes!

I also think that one potential downside of private school, is that if it does leave you feeling very reliant on it as a 'comfort zone', how are you going to feel if you can't as an adult afford the same thing for your children..? I mean, if Quattro's dd does to private and then believes very firmly that it's a key to her own success, how is she going to feel if she can't afford the same for her own children? (Given that very many interesting and worthwhile careers don't necessarily pay that well? And who knows what's going to happen economically long term? - a lot of grandparents are seeing their portfolios plummet).
Of course, you can tie yourself up in knots thinking of all the 'What ifs?' It's probably best to put in all the input you can as a parent (probably more important than school anyway) and then keep a healthy distance, having faith in your child to achieve their potential.

All very interesting.

QC - other parents' experiences are useful, but don't let yourself be swayed by anyone's views but your own and your daughter's!

Our neighbours are ecstatic about our local primary school, as are practically all the parents (and OFSTED) - it's one of the top state primaries in the country (whatever that means). However, it still wouldn't have been right for me/my DCs.

One parent with children at both schools says the state one is very good, but the private one is miles better. Ho hum.

(When I say 'the private one', I mean the local prep school, about quarter of a mile from the state primary!)

Violet did your name begin with an alpha?

Leeza I read your whole post out to dp - very interesting...

I am desperately trying to steer my ds away from medicine and toward material science or chemistry to improve his chances...he is having non of it

RiaParkinson I would have done medicine anywhere over something-not-medicine at Oxbridge. It sounds like your son wants to be a doctor and good luck to him. Clearly it's important to have a back up but if he thinks he can do it... let him try. For all us docs moan and groan about it I still love my job.

Ria - My DS wants to study medicine no matter what. He will most probably apply to Oxbridge unless he thinks it's waste of one of his four choices for whatever reason.
I think he is being very sensible about it all.

thanks both of you

i meant none of it of course!

I agree with Mrs G. Also if you went to a private school yourself and your children haev always gone there it's going to takea bit of getting used to that you're not a cherished paying customer and more get to Oxbridge from the private school so I can't see there's much of a contest.