What is the real value of highly selective independents/grammars now?

[Bubblesbobbles]

Genuine question for parents further along in the process - what do people now see as the actual value add of highly selective Independent schools versus strong grammars/comprehensives?

I’m asking because the level of pressure around 7+/11+ entry for some schools (Bancroft’s/WCH/ICHS etc.) seems enormous now, with many children heavily tutored just to gain entry, and often still requiring significant tutoring/support afterwards.

At the same time, I know pupils from schools like Woodbridge who avoided that whole prep school/11+ treadmill, yet still ended up at places like Imperial studying Engineering and Physics with top A level results, EPQs, UKMT participation, competitions, strong extracurriculars, etc.

It also made me wonder whether mixed ability teaching environments may actually suit some children better in terms of confidence, independence and self motivation.

Another thing I noticed when visiting schools was that advertised “small class sizes” sometimes appeared to refer to form groups rather than actual teaching sets, which surprised me a bit.

I also wonder whether the gap between grammars/comprehensives and Independents is narrower than it used to be now that curriculum resources, enrichment opportunities and good teachers are more widely accessible.

For parents who chose either route — what do you genuinely think made the biggest difference for your child:
academic environment?
peer group?
confidence/networking?
teaching quality?
extracurriculars?
university outcomes?
pastoral support?

Interested in hearing balanced experiences from both sides.

As far as I understand it, the highly selective independent schools simply offer higher quality extracurricular activities and that roundedness is actually specifically encouraged at all times. So they can be pulled out of classes for music lessons and sports fixtures which does not happen to the same extent in grammar schools (you can get away with missing 1 lesson a week for eg a music lesson).
Looking at DS12’s recent school report from a superselective grammar school it notes how well rounded he is and how many activities he has done (and he is some sort of rep for the year and talks at open events etc), but they specifically are already telling him to focus more and extra on his academic work. And when they test them at his school, it is really high expectations all round and really hard tests from the get go. There is zero flattery forthcoming, just more and more academic expectation. And the same applies to my DD in year 12 at a superselective grammar school. DD has friends who have dropped out of further maths because the peer group is so insane. Pretty sure the same kids in most comps would be at least upper average in their further maths sets.
So they are simply in an environment where the expectation is that everyone is very clever and has to also work very hard. So that is fine if that is what the child and parents want.
The same then applies to elite unis. Make sure the kids actually want to be a small fish in a big pond and that that motivates them, rather than discourages them. My DC have all been fine with it, but natural it is not, and plenty of DC struggle with it (feeling second best, when they are actually super duper in reality, compared to the national average).
I suspect highly selective independent schools in London kids can get a very skewed view of what type of wealth is normal. So they can be well off, but actually feel poor. Again, that is not everyone’s thing. Some people do not mind being the poor relation, but others do and just really value the opportunity.
As for unis and contextual offers, it all comes out in the wash as employers are now contextualising too. So anyone getting in who is not quite up to the mark can suffer for it further down the line so I hope the unis are making sure they do offer to DCs who really can cope with the demands (and I don’t just mean academically, I mean self belief and confidence and thriving, as explained above).

Yes we had very similar experience at grammar @Araminta1003 which suited my DD who was only focusing on academics but would't work for my DD.
Out of interest, as your DS is very musical, what are ensembles like at your grammar? Are they decent level for grade 8+ musicians?

As far as I understand it, the highly selective independent schools simply offer higher quality extracurricular activities

This absolutely isn't true of our experience of one of the highly selective schools. The main benefit was the curriculum and the opportunity to do a lot of stuff that was only tangentially related to any curriculum requirements. Plus the other thing that was really great was that because the school was well aware that everyone was capable of getting 8s and 9s or As and A*s in pretty much everything and also that most children were working hard and doing their best, there was very little pressure.

Your children are being told to focus on work. Mine experienced a gentler and kinder approach and still came out with excellent grades and a place at her dream university. If anything, the school was often telling children that they did not need to be working all the time and should make sure they had downtime and time with friends as well.

opportunity to do a lot of stuff that was only tangentially related to any curriculum requirements.

But that is also extracurriculars?

If anything, the school was often telling children that they did not need to be working all the time and should make sure they had downtime and time with friends as well.

The parents do all the pressure! 😂

Plenty of parents at our large non selective state school went to Oxbridge. And the school does get a number of kids in every year. It is in London.

@Ubertomusic - the ensembles are much smaller but the music ensemble teachers are good. There are a surprising number of gifted musicians across the school. Thing is though they don’t get pulled out to rehearse for hours (or hours after school) so it’s not like an independent. But the serious musicians do Guildhall RCM RAM or Trinity plus NCO/NYO or regional youth orchestras in the holidays. DS fancies himself more of a soloist at the moment. My nephew at Eton claims he rehearses until 10pm several nights in a row, not sure my DS would ever be up for that!

@BonjourCrisette - it’s an all boys state grammar until 16. They are largely incredibly bright but many are chatty and silly and lacking in attention to detail/overconfident. So I guess the school feels like they need direction and competition. It’s a completely different culture than a a superselective girls school.

I'm a bit surprised that you are all discussing where you went to university.

Why is it surprising? Isn’t it just a general conversation topic? Especially when our kids are in 6th form so we’re starting to discuss universities and open days.

Maybe at sixth form level. But I tend not to volunteer it as it sounds a bit stuck up to say you went to Oxford or Cambridge. I had a conversation last week about which universities we went to with someone I've worked with for 6 years, it didn't occur to me to raise it earlier. Clearly it takes me a lot longer to get to that point in a relationship.

Just to be clear. I didn’t go to oxbridge. I did go to a standard (now not a good) RG. I dunno it just seems here people are comfortable talking about it.

Getting a Grade B at A-level is not impressive. Since students only choose their best subjects and their parents have deep pockets for extra resources, the fact that 20% still get a C or D is telling. It confirms my original point that the majority of students are just coasting.

That is exactly what I have heard. To motivate my daughter, who has become too complacent in her overly holistic private school, I would rather let the school and her peers do the pushing instead of playing the bad guy myself. That is exactly why I am now drawn to the highly selective grammar school system, provided she gets in, of course.

Thank you Araminta. Yes, many go to JDs but that's sacrificing the whole Saturday and playing in NCO is not a weekly activity. What I tried - and failed - to find is a good academic school that would also offer high level music making in groups within the school day or straight after school, with termly concerts. Some schools claim they have excellent music but in reality their ensembles are grade 5-6 at best. It's either not valued by parents or not a priority for schools and I was just wondering if grammars south of the river are different.

I was just wondering if grammars south of the river are different.
@Ubertomusic

I’ve heard Tiffin Girls' has a great music reputation, and I saw on their website that their symphony orchestra minimum requirement is Grade 6+. We will find out more about it, if my DD gets a place next year.

20% isn’t the majority? The results certainly compare favourably to most comprehensives, and it was just one school I picked at random.

Getting into selective independents seems completely cutthroat in London as far as I can see, with kids being tutored on top of their expensive prep schools, and the tutoring continues throughout (I used to tutor GCSE and A level so have some experience here). I think kids who are “coasting” are in the minority, however rich their parents are, certainly in London day schools. Boarding and outside London may be different (probably is).

@VarioPerfect yes, I think you went a bit far. There are certainly a few London independents that do have an extremely bright cohort but there is a narrative that all London privates are super hard to get into & only take very intelligent dc which ime isn’t particularly true, obviously it’s a great marketing strategy!

@Ubertomusic - I thought a lot of independents have Saturday school anyway (or at least those with boarding do). So I think Saturday music is fine for many in state. The issue is more about getting access to the very best teacher in your first study and how to get the very best at the top level when they are older. We aren’t really in this camp or level of commitment, I don’t think we will ever be. Those already in music have that access I think.

@Bubblesbobbles If your child is very bright (135+ CAT score), I think super selective schools will be the best option. They will be around other bright kids who will motivate them. I also think that will be able to engage in higher level discussions with their peers and their teachers will gear lessons at the pace that suits them. In a normal comprehensive, there might be two top students in set 1 maths who are similar to the super bright students of Westminster, SPGS and Tiffins but most of their peers will not be. Unless you live near some anomalous comprehensive in London with a selective sixth form that does not represent the vast majority of comprehensives.

No, not really. I mean around academics rather than extracurricular (of which there was also plenty).

I don't think this is universal, though you get bonkers parents everywhere to some extent!

I don’t think branding their families as “rough” helps anyone, it just perpetuates stereotypes and division.

@Platypus7 you stereotyped private school children and teachers “As opposed to those who just want to wait for their teacher pension by delivering the same old lessons to a bunch of compliant middle class children‘

I went to a grammar school. Not sure if it would count as super selective. But the difference in the kids who went there and those who went to my previous comprehensive middle school was huge. Academically I would have done fine in a comprehensive - I was just that kind of child. But I wasn't happy in that environment. That wasn't my tribe. I was so so much happier in the grammar - for me that environment was just right for me. I never felt any academic pressure but the horrible social pressure and feeling like I didn't fit in was gone - I'm convinced that made my teenage years far more enjoyable and allowed me to do well in a way that would have been much harder with all the additional social stress I would have felt if I'd continued with the peer group I was with before.
I massively believe that bright children (all children in fact) are enabled most by being happy and surrounded by people they fit in with. Let's be honest, as adults we don't mix with all types - all my friends, my colleagues etc are all very well educated and smart. Why do so many people think our smart kids should have to be in an environment with people so different from them, especially at a time of life where social pressure is so huge and they get targeted for being different and smart? It's unfair on them.

The flip side of this of course is that in some areas (London in particular) sheer numbers mean that getting into one of these selective schools requires a lot of prep, even for naturally pretty smart kids. When the whole point is to have a happy child it's hard not to agonise over that and the impact of the stress on them. And if your child doesn't get into one of the selective schools you worry that the school they go to will have no super smart kids in at all - and that's probably a real negative for smart kids who are just below the line (or didn't do quite enough prep). DC didn't get into a super selective, probably partly due to suspected dyslexia (and not that much self-motivation yet... hoping that will improve with age), and we hope that the school they will attend will be ok from this perspective and not too lacking in smart peers.