What is the real value of highly selective independents/grammars now?

[Bubblesbobbles]

Genuine question for parents further along in the process - what do people now see as the actual value add of highly selective Independent schools versus strong grammars/comprehensives?

I’m asking because the level of pressure around 7+/11+ entry for some schools (Bancroft’s/WCH/ICHS etc.) seems enormous now, with many children heavily tutored just to gain entry, and often still requiring significant tutoring/support afterwards.

At the same time, I know pupils from schools like Woodbridge who avoided that whole prep school/11+ treadmill, yet still ended up at places like Imperial studying Engineering and Physics with top A level results, EPQs, UKMT participation, competitions, strong extracurriculars, etc.

It also made me wonder whether mixed ability teaching environments may actually suit some children better in terms of confidence, independence and self motivation.

Another thing I noticed when visiting schools was that advertised “small class sizes” sometimes appeared to refer to form groups rather than actual teaching sets, which surprised me a bit.

I also wonder whether the gap between grammars/comprehensives and Independents is narrower than it used to be now that curriculum resources, enrichment opportunities and good teachers are more widely accessible.

For parents who chose either route — what do you genuinely think made the biggest difference for your child:
academic environment?
peer group?
confidence/networking?
teaching quality?
extracurriculars?
university outcomes?
pastoral support?

Interested in hearing balanced experiences from both sides.

@fairyring25 I guess I am very lucky but I don’t know any different as a Londoner.

Both my school & dcs school have teachers that have stayed for decades and put their own dc through the schools. And I guess many Catholic schools benefit from invested parents (in that you need to have attended mass regularly for years)

I have one at a very selective grammar and one at a very good comp.

No difference in class size, particularly in y7-9, in fact the grammar has slightly bigger classes, but there is a difference in the offerings. The grammar does trips abroad for language exchanges and outward bound style trips. All kids do a language for GCSE and do triple science. There's very little disruptive behaviour.

The comp has different opportunities and a slightly wider curriculum for GCSE, but definitely has more behavioural issues. It remains to be seen how well each child will do as eldest is just doing GCSEs. The school only sets for maths and doesn't require any specific GCSEs.

It sounds like you live near me @Bubblesbobbles. I wonder how many people from Woodbridge actually end up at Imperial given they generally want 4 A*.

Based on purely anecdotal evidence from friends, a lot of the middle class kids in our area seem to end up at RG unis but I'm not sure what the outcomes are for the less privileged kids.

The main advantage for my DC of a selective independent has been consistent, expert, specialist teachers who have a genuine interest in their subject well beyond the curriculum. It’s most obvious in KS3 (where they don’t have to follow the national curriculum) and A level, where it makes for really wide ranging class discussions.

Plus what others have said about behaviour, facilities, wide range of subject choices, pastoral care etc. It makes a difference that teachers know them as individuals, and have time set aside to do pastoral care, run clubs, support DC with SEND etc.

I think the journey is more important than the destination. If their school makes them slightly less attractive to Oxbridge (and I’m not at all convinced that it does) then that’s a price I’m happy to pay, in return for seven happy, well-supported years of secondary education.

We have all of this at our local state achool. There aren’t absolutes.

Privae, granmars, selected schools aren’t better. They are sometimes better for specific children

I think it depends entirely on where you are and what options you have. Had we stayed living where we were when my DC1 was born I have absolutely zero doubt that I would have been engaged in frenzied 11+ prep and if unsuccessful it would have been independent, come what may. But where we live now is a whole different ball game and a lot of the things that people here are citing as advantages of their DC's private education don't sound that different to what was offered at my DC's state schools. Certainly comparing to our local independents there is very little difference. I'm sure there are other schools elsewhere that offer far better facilities than any of the schools near us, but as they weren't an option that comparison is fairly meaningless. Here, neither the independents nor the state grammars within a half reasonable distance offered any appreciable advantage over our local very good comprehensive. In another place though that could be completely different,

If you do pick a state school, go for one where both teachers and pupils are encouraged to take pride in academic achievement.

Pupil numbers are falling and funding is based on head counts so schools should be actively trying to achieve academically etc to attract numbers.

Well yes, all schools are different and state comps vary enormously between schools and between areas. Parents need to do what's right for them and their children based on the local options available. If people are within catchment of an outstanding comp, they'd be usually idiots to pay for private, but not if their local comps are in special measures of otherwise very lowly ranked where going private is often the only guarantee of a half decent education for their child.

@Bubblesbobbles i do think its the peers you have. At our independent, its also mixed ability, small class sizes, and over half the class have SEN. There's a dedicated SEN teacher too. Parents all focus on education as best as can. The 'lazier' kids tend to be from wealthier parents who have spoilt them, but the majority of kids have got parents who are invested.

A family member got into a local indie but was refused a bursary and they went state. Grades went downhill as they got involved in the wrong crowds. The parents really regret not trying to find the funds to get them into private initially. I went to state and did pretty well but my peers were like me, all striving for more.

@Therightschoolco Imperial and UCL have high numbers of overseas students and they are nearly all privately educated. So you would expect their privately educated student numbers to be high. As you would LSE and a few others. School 6th forms in private schools generality take more than 6.5% too. Used to be over 15% but that might be dropping.

Most private schools can teach bright dc. They just might not have a huge critical mass of very bright dc. The uber selective grammars are full of them. My DDs went to less selective private schools but quite a few achieved very well and they didn’t suffer undue pressure. They did lots of extra activities and had excellent drama and music so it suited them! Sport was first class too. No tutoring but they boarded so learn time management and independence. Stood them in great stead for being adults. I’d choose this every time over a highly selective school. One of mine was 1 mark off the top pass mark in the Bucks grammar test but we wanted a smaller school.

DS was only offered a place at a failing state comprehensive, which even Ofsted said wasn't safe. There is no grammar option in our area.

Faced with that, I suggested a small, academically rigorous but unfashionable school to DS. He loved it.

The value was small class sizes, quality of teaching, continuity of teaching staff, lack of disruption, good facilities. He stayed for A'levels and is forecast AAA. He is happy & confident. It has been worth every penny despite taking a huge proportion of my income.

@MeetMeOnTheCorner , Imperial and UCL have a lot of overseas students educated in private schools but it doesn’t count as private school numbers but in the overseas student data. So if you add those student numbers as well as UK residents numbers the percentage from private schools would be even higher.

Mine went to a selective independent.

We chose it because we were not happy with either of the state options locally. Both were 11-16 co-ed comprehensives. One had a reputation for poor behaviour and bullying. The other was very large (because so many people were avoiding the first one) and seemed impersonal. Both seemed focused on the 5 x A*-C performance measure and didn’t seem to have any interest in stretching the most able students.

There were no other state schools that they would have been able to get into, and no grammars (which would probably have been our first choice) but there were lots of independents to choose from.

Our specific reasons for choosing the school we did were:

1. We preferred a single sex school (girls). That gave us 6 options locally.

2. We wanted a selective school where intellectual curiosity and a love of learning were the norm not an exception, and where our very bright elder daughter would feel at home rather than being made to feel that she was a swot/geek. She was very shy and was desperate to fit in with her classmates and be average, whereas at primary school she stuck out a bit. I was much less clever as a teenager, but I definitely dumbed myself down a bit at my local comprehensive in the 1970s trying to fit in with the cool kids and didn’t want her to do the same. 3 of the 6 girls’ schools were selective.

3. We wanted a day school rather than boarding. We didn’t want - and in any event couldn’t afford - boarding and I have always had the impression that day pupils missed out a bit at boarding schools. I also had the impression that the average boarding school parent was much wealthier than the average day school parent, and thought the girls would feel more like “poor relations” in a boarding school. 2 of the 3 selective schools were day schools and we applied to both.

4. We wanted a school with good extra-curricular provision, especially in music. Both remaining schools had good music provision but it was excellent in our first choice school.

5. We wanted a school the girls could travel to school independently on public transport. Both remaining schools were manageable, but our first choice school was closer to the station.

6. We wanted a school with good pastoral care. Both remaining schools had good reputations for that, but our children’s experience of open days and entrance exam days, and what we read about induction etc, suggested that our first choice school had thought more about how to make the process as stress-free as possible, especially for girls like ours who were the only applicants from their primary school and did not have a ready-made group of friends from prep school.

My children are now in their mid and late twenties and I don’t know whether I would make the same choice again. Both local state schools now have a much better reputation than they did, especially the one that was worse. One also now has a 6th form.

My children went to state grammar schools and thrived . Genuinely believe these schools are better than the local private secondary schools.

Someone upthread mentioned that they were educated in a bubble of privilege and they didn't want that for their kids. I just wanted to add to that.

We have gone for private senior school from state primary school. I think there are a couple of areas where the 'value add' isn't there (or it's a 'value loss'!) between private and a good state senior school option (which we did have).

The academics and the extracurriculars are super. But I went to an 'ordinary' non-London private school and the cohort in my children's schools is so, so different. There is so much wealth and with hindsight I wish I had thought more about the oddness, and potential impact, of my kids growing up with a social circle consisting exclusively of incredibly privileged kids (I do realise that for some people this is actually a key aim of choosing private!).

The other thing (overlapping really) is that in their London state primary they were part of a little local community. My own private school was to some extent part of the local community of the town I grew up in too. I know that the more elite privates (including the London ones) do each create their own kind of 'community' - but that feeling of your senior school embedding you in a local/geographic community - which was definitely a 'value add' I benefited from - is not there with these schools.

To be clear, I only think about both these things because there was a very strong state option close to us - I do sympathize with the posters who have been in difficult positions in the absence of good local state schools.

My son is in a selective grammar and for me it's the quality of the other students who are like minded and want to learn. The expectations are high, behaviour is good and overall it's just massively increased his expectations of himself. It's expected to try hard and do your best.

i can’t tell you the product of going to a private competitive independent but I can tell you what I’m seeking for my child.

Performing 2 years ahead of his peers made my son feel different and affected his mental health. He was beginning to refuse to go in to school because he couldn’t see the point and it was too boring. It made him anxious and depressed. Once we did the tours and applied for a handful of selective schools his mood lifted almost immediately. The tests and interviews energised him. And now that he got into his first choice he’s much happier and more confident.

He’s looking forward to learning at last and being normal. That’s already a win.

Im hoping he’s challenged and actually has to work to keep up rather than simply coasting.

(His primary teachers did what they could to challenge him but were limited by time and resources. It was his teachers who recommended he try for the selective schools)

@HawaiiWake I think we can agree the privately educated dc at some unis is very high, but it’s what it is.

I think if you go to a good private school you do get “extras” that might not be available elsewhere in the state system. We didn’t just pay for exam results. We wanted dc to participate in as much as possible. To be encouraged to have a go. Some opportunities were very different from the local grammar! We did feel the education was more personal and we, as parents, felt included. It’s just different from a state school and both went on a terms exchange to South Africa in y9 for a term. So exam pressure wasn’t immense. They learnt a lot about themselves though.

Eldest at grammar and did brilliantly. It wasn't super selective - just over the pass mark and in catchment and you're in. He had a brilliant bunch of friends and a fantastic experience. Sports were good and 6th form excellent. He got fantastic A levels and secured an incredible degree apprenticeship. The other two are at independent- my son has thrived and certainly had more sporting opportunities. I agree with other posters about a narrower social circle and my daughter can't wait to leave at post 16 to get away from the elitism, competition and mean girl vibe. I think it hits girls more than boys as my son's friends are a great bunch of boys from Indy - I wish I'd never wasted all the money on my daughter and let her stay with her friends from primary.

@wingingthings My DD could not wait to leave the numerous mean girls at her state primary. She encountered much nicer girls at her independent school. I know why we paid and I don’t regret it. Going to the grammar with the primary crowd was untenable. The competition amongst parents was intense as was coaching and tutoring. We didn’t do that so didn’t fit into the upwardly mobile at all costs brigade.

Not sure how old your DD is, but I think there are mean girls everywhere. A significant proportion of teenage girls are horrid and I don't think that can really be avoided anywhere.

We are in London and chose to send DD to a selective independent. She had gone to a prep school so we were used to small class sizes, more personalised teaching and plenty of sport and creative arts. We have one grammar within travelling distance but the location/journey wasn't ideal, and it offered less breadth and facilities. There is a very good comp locally where we were offered a place, but the class sizes were much bigger than she was used to and although it does well in academics and arts, it has a poor sports and languages offer and a small site. For many people the advantage of the independent would be considered marginal and not worth it in financial terms. We're fortunate to be in a position to afford it without sacrifices so we felt we wanted the best opportunities for DD and the most pleasant experience in terms of facilities, campus, trips and food. She's very happy there and doing well - perhaps she'd have done just as well at the comp but we're just pleased she's in the right environment for her needs.

@WoollyandSarah These were at primary, but yes, they are everywhere. Definitely not just at independents! DD avoided at secondary - she’s getting married in the autumn and numerous secondary school friends attending. Even one who was mean! She’s matured now!

That’s interesting, but if you’ve noticed similar Oxbridge parents in your cohort, doesn’t it just push up the overall cohort grades against which your DC will be assessed for Oxbridge?

As an aside I went to one of the campus unis you mention and I agree about the “bubble” ❤️

Ive heard about Oxbridge favouring state pupils but what about other unis?

@Pinko1 Most have contextual offers. These vary on how they calculate them. Bristol is on school attended. My local secondary is on the list. Many well off parents use it because we are an expensive housing area. Certainly very nice cars pick up dc! However it’s not a grammar so doesn’t have the top 20% ish. However plenty in £1 million houses there and they get special consideration. Other unis consider different aspects.