Daughter being excluded from prom

[user1471497170]

My daughter is year 11 and sits GCSEs next month. She has struggled throughout the whole of secondary school with friendships, MH/school anxiety, behaviour and approximately a year ago almost got sent to pru. She has never settled in school. However she has made significant improvement, not on any behaviour plan, is revising hard and should pass GCSEs and do her chosen subjects in college.

She has autism, anxiety and some physical health issues that are likely linked. Getting her into school is a struggle as she feels unhappy there but we make the effort and her attendance is good.

Although much improved her behaviour score is not high enough to meet the 90% prom threshold (reminders, uniform points and gokng to toilet when not permitted). She was informally told this week the final decision is that she will be excluded from prom.

Now all the girls have their tickets and she is beside herself. They are all making plans and talking about dresses and she now feels unable to continue going to school due to feeling so distressed about this. She is worried how she will cope with the sense of exclusion having to keep hearing about prom in school and assemblies

She's now at home. I have written to the school and submitted 2 complaints over the last 2 months however I have not received a satisfactory response. There has been no communication to me from the school about their decision or how they will support those excluded. Please can someone advise how I can escalate this further and if possible externally.

Sometimes Timmy is communicating he's a twat.

The point you missed is that in many jobs you can’t just go whenever you want. Even in other leisure scenarios you may have to wait to use facilities. Even on school trips on a coach kids have to wait. That’s not punishment either.

We know while rare young people have wet themselves at school. We know peers in school are likely less sympathetic than peers at work will be if this happened in a work place.
I don't imagine there are as many cases for f adults trying themselves in work as their are cases of young people wetting themselves at school

If I had to choose I would take my chances with colleagues than I ever would with school age peers.

I imagine I would still be known as left middle wet pants 30 years later if that had happened at school.

25 years teaching and one child ever wet themselves. They didn't even ask to go, and no one knew about the incident. Colleagues have never had it. Wetting yourself really is super rare and ceases to be a rational argument.

The overwhelming majority of humans can go 2 hours without a wee. Most of these students who apparently need the toilet every 5 minutes can game for hours and sit through a film without going to the toilet.

Absolutely but that doesn’t mean lack of accountability or consequence if it impacts others. If reasonable adjustments can be made then they should be made, but that’s as far as it goes. As it is, OP hasn’t been back to clarify (and I can’t blame them as it’s now turned into a massive discussion about behaviour/rules/SEND in schools rather than specific advice they were after).

Still missing the point 🤷‍♀️

Not prom but y6 residential. The teacher suddenly decided in march parents eve that dc shouldnt do the sleep over. After having paid and no real issues all year. Dc is audhd.

so imo sometimes teachers can take against kids that are irritating them. Once a kid has a rep they do get treated differently. Notably when mine went to secondary they treated her better than primary…

I dont think all asd ids love rules especially if as about half of them have adhd

Absolutely! I don't think that any child would deserve having their one chance throughout all of their school years to go to the school prom, taken away from them for anything other than something that would cause them to be prosecuted for, and to be found guilty by a jury, in the wider world, outside of a school's doors and walls.

In my day we didn't have proms, and in the 5 + decades since then, I have sadly never had the opportunity to attend anything similar, and under similar circumstances. So, I don't think - as someone else suggested - that @user1471497170's DD will necessarily have another opportunity to go to something equally as exciting and special. You can never be 16 again, you can never be at the cusp of leaving your childhood behind, and starting your adulthood.

It would be very cruel to ban a neuro typical child from such an experience, so for one who has already been diagnosed with a neuro diverse condition, it is almost inconceivable and unbelievable that the very ones that we have to trust with our dear childrens lives, and well being, are the ones who would wish and demand such a devastating punishment.

However, I think that the scariest part in all of this, is that it is those very people who have been standing in loco parentis of our children, and who should care about both the physical, and the mental health, of their young charges, who are also the the very ones deciding how harsh a punishment should be for any minor offence apparently committed by a child in their 'care'. We should be able to trust implicitly that they will conduct themselves both wisely and compassionately, but that is not what we are seeing here, in this thread.

The OP is describing here teachers whose decisions make them seem much more like they are manifesting being generic Victorian Fathers, then intelligent, caring human beings. If that is the sort of power a person wants to have, then they should either join the judiciary, the crown prosecution service, or become a M.P. and not choose to be one of the most influential people in our children's everyday lives.
Sorry for the massive rant, this is a subject that has been close to my heart since I was 5 years old.

Not all people with Autism have the same triggers, or the same reactions to similar actions and thoughts. Being diagnosed as having Autistic traits is considered to be having a place on the Autistic Spectrum, so I expect that @user1471497170's DD has some more complex issues than you and your DC have. Thank goodness I have only come across people with this ND, who have all had a kinder and more pleasant disposition than you appear to have @Thetreesaregreeninspring, even though they have all been at different stages along the horizontal ladder.

@PlayingDevilsAdvocateisinteresting "Absolutely! I don't think that any child would deserve having their one chance throughout all of their school years to go to the school prom, taken away from them"

She's going to college next year. It's highly likely they will have a prom too or at least an event to mark the end of school. But if her behaviour doesn't improve, it's highly likely she'll be excluded from that too.

Perhaps the OP could be preparing her for the college experience rather than dwelling on all of this, or, as is apparently the case, keeping her child at home?

However, I think that the scariest part in all of this, is that it is those very people who have been standing in loco parentis of our children, and who should care about both the physical, and the mental health, of their young charges, who are also the the very ones deciding how harsh a punishment should be for any minor offence

If the OPs child was threatened with the PRU, the offences won't be minor.

Those people standing in loco parentis give up their free time to allow prom to happen. I think it's perfectly reasonable for them to say no to giving up their time for a child who has ruined the education experience of others. I have refused to attend prom when a child who verbally abused me all year was allowed to go.

Many nd people would find loud music, semi dark, flashing lights, people squashed together and crowded rooms very overwhelming.
Would the young person actually enjoy the prom or would it cause a massive meltdown?

I work in further education and I am heartily sick of parents & young people who use any form of MH, ND etc an excuse for poor behaviour, attendance, work.
Parents fail to see how far teachers have bent over backwards to give the young person chance and adjustment. Way more than any other student.
This also isn't just about the young person, it's the 100 other young people who have met the requirements.

It's one night. Get over it and move on. It's not going to scar them for life.

The OP / their daughter is in for a massive shock going into college because any support in school will vanish unless they have a high needs EHCP.

OP has not explained why her daughter wants to go to the prom. Why?
She doesn't like school. She doesn't want to go to school. She doesn't go to school very often. She doesn't have many friends. She has friendship issues. She is leaving school within the next month or so. It is likely that she will then cease all contact with her peers.
Why does she want to socialise with these people that she avoids seeing on a daily basis and doesn't particularly like? Why?
Next question that won't be answered: what is she planning on studying at college?
(Unlike schools, colleges do chuck disruptive kids out)

Well I was completely with you until you suggested such people should be in positions of power in society generally- In the last bit you've just described the Taliban!
We need sensible people in political and judicial positions. If they can't exercise proportionate and appropriate responses with one child - a girl- we don't want them in positions which impact all the children and adults. Strength isn't ' Archetypal Victorian dads.'

The OP is talking about uniform and going to the toilet. Also over a year ago.
"However she has made significant improvement, not on any behaviour plan, is revising hard and should pass GCSEs and do her chosen subjects in college."

Have you read the OP?

And "reminders" which isn't about forgetting things but behaviour sanctions. Which the OP has been really vague about in specifying what they were for.

Also the "going to the toilet" will be without permission and she would have a toilet pass if she needed to go more often. So it's most likely, as others have said ad infinitum, that she's been leaving classes without permission on a frequent basis using the toilet as an excuse which could be a danger to herself and others and disruptive to other kids.

Amen

She's not on a behaviour plan currently? So doing relatively well?
Her going to the toilet is not going to disrupt a prom.
Personally think the whole thing of social events like this needs to be divorced from sanctions.They are completely separate. YP do need to socialise and they need to be included by adults with their peers especially at that age.

But wondering around areas she's not allowed to could.

"Improvement" is not necessarily "good enough". A vast amount of bad behaviour can occur before a behaviour plan and a prom is discretionary and run on a voluntary basis by staff. Sorry but the DD sounds like she has issues but also sounds like at times she might be a pain in the arse. Teachers are under no obligation to have kids like that at an event they're running voluntarily.

If parents don't discipline their children others will better the school then a judge which is what will happen when parents keep saying kids can't help their behaviour because nd and mh problems

It's an assumption the solution is discipline. I find those who have never experienced a family member with any sort of Mental health issues often don't really believe in it. If it's not a lived experienced it's hard to convey how that plays out. There may just be gaps in experience.
Notwithstanding that Id agree generally with strong routines and boundaries. Just don't think that mixing that up with a prom is correct. The whole thing of proms has been adopted from America relatively recently. Rules and boundaries have always been in place. Other than that the event needs to be safe, I don't think the two things should be connected. Offering a social opportunity is likely to raise anxieties in the more anxious. To withdraw it like this seems kind of psychotic.

I taught for 35 years. I tended to give the benefit of the doubt to kids I knew weren’t likely to cause damage and let them go, even though it got me in trouble a few times. I have never heard, in all that time, of a senior child wetting themselves or bleeding through he to a period issue. I had heavy periods myself and school definitely didn’t allow in lesson wandering in the 70s/80s and I never bled through either. I’m not saying it never happens - I just think it’s not common and is probably connected to a freak flooding situation which couldn’t have been prevented.
When I started teaching (late 80s) we had a reasonable expectation that all but the most difficult pupils would only ask if they needed to go and would go and come back without damaging anything/one while they were out. Sadly that’s no longer the case.

This is why good things stop. Prom is not an entitlement, it’s not part of education, it’s an extra event that teaches put on out of the goodness of their hearts. They don’t have to do it.
People insist their badly behaved child has to go, it becomes too much effort and it stops for everyone. This thread is teacher burnout in action, not only are there no thankyous, not a smidge of gratitude, just a great big dollop of ‘I want’ entitlement.
The wilful ignorance of - they only want to go to the toilet - no they bloody don’t. Students arrange to meet at certain times, they trash the toilet, threaten students in other classes. These visit are used to bully other children - staring into classes. The list goes on.
The wilful ignorance coupled with the rules don’t apply to me entitlement cause the anxiety and MH issues. When the real world hits entitlement you have a massive cognitive dissonance that causes MH issues.
Firm but loving discipline in child rearing has been found by psychologists to be the parenting and teaching model that has the highest success rates. Discipline does not mean beating children with a stick it means clear, safe guidelines that are adhered to.

But haven't you heard? Preventing kids from going to prom because they refuse to behave themselves is "psychotic" now! 🙄

Couldn't agree more with you, I feel desperately sorry for teachers who have to deal with this nonsense.