Why white children are not getting into grammar schools

[deanstreet]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2026/02/11/why-white-children-are-not-getting-into-grammar-schools/?WT.mc_id=tmgoff_fb_photo_not-getting-into-grammar-schools

Yes I think so

i used to work in a private school and the girls were discouraged by parents from doing drama and things like textiles or cookery, everything was geared around science and maths and it is a shame

i understand the parents want them in the medical professions or accounting but what if they are not good at these and prefer the arts

It's interesting you say this, because I think the way girls are discouraged from doing STEM in the average comp- even if they want to- is awful. The UK assumes girls can't do math. Many Asians don't feel this way. We think anyone can do math if they work hard enough.

DD was one of very few women doing engineering at her university. As a S Asian, the last thing she would ever want to do is cookery, so she can end up tied to the kitchen like her grandma. We have enough cookery in our cultures, believe me!

People who want their kids to be tree surgeons or chefs are not bad people. Neither are those of us who can see our kids are bright and want more for them. Also, it's incredibly hard for S. Asians to become top actors, pop stars, artists or influencers. So many avenues are closed to us. You have the odd Simone Ashley or MIA, but otherwise it's almost impossible.
Recently heard Indira Varma talking about how she lost so many auditions because she refused to change her name, when starting out. And she is half white!

Yes I see what you mean about cookery😅

I think maths definitely takes practice and when I first started in secondary education I was shocked how many dc didn’t know their tables or attempt to learn them

they would rather use a calculator or look at the written table on their organiser

I think you are just on a wind up OP

If your not a troll then your just a bit dim and racist too.

You're just flitting from fact to opinion when in some cases they are contradictory. I am pretty certain you wouldn’t be getting into a grammar school.

Anyway, amongst your rambling I have looked at some of the facts you present; and I think;

They absolutely should ban international and out of borough applications to grammar.

Increase the time frame for how long you have to live in catchment to 3 years as opposed 1

Add a very high level of English test to the 11+

As an Indian family, it's because we are academically pushy. We send them to tuition, we teach them stuff at home and well and we always expect the best.

@RichardOnslowRoper - CharlieXCX (new Wuthering Heights soundtrack) is half Indian.
Lots of Indian and half Indian and Pakistani and half Pakistani etc talent coming up now all over. It takes a generation or two. It won’t just be limited to the cliched professions of medicine and dentistry. They are increasingly in Politics too now. If parents aspire towards best schools, be it state or private, the kids do well down the road, in all spheres.

@OhDear111 - loads of people tutor now, and there are even specialist Oxbridge tutors. It is what it is. STEP papers are hard, DD has kids in her class who get 100% in their A level Maths mocks and FM and still have tutors as they are aiming for top of top. Same in CompSci - it is such a low chance of getting into Cambridge even for the brightest so plenty of people do tutor now. Perhaps so that they feel they gave the kids the best possible chance. I am going to assume the admissions tutors at Oxbridge can see through it as they have the luxury of an interview process.

The ones that I know / know of are doing a range of things: doctor, uni lecturer, physiotherapist, writer, international promoter, research scientist, film maker. Some amazing jobs, some very average.

Near me in London the grammars c.95% south Asian kids. The entrance exams are very tough and it’s all hugely competitive. Fair play to those families and children who win a place and they all fully deserve to be there.

I would say though that I wouldn’t choose for my kids to be in a tiny minority at school (of any kind - race, sex, religion, financial status) and so even though my kids are bright I won’t even bother applying. I don’t know whether other parents feel similar and so the lack of diversity in the schools is self-perpetuating.

@Sideofnoreturn this is how i feel though im Asian myself and id like a mixed school. However where we are, we are the minority and the school is mixed ability.

The best schools locally are all nigerian/South Asian.

Tests are usually at the end of the summer holidays, I’m not sure how they’d even take a child out of school for that?

For me, it’s largely about attitude to hard work and preparation. My children are at grammar school now and the cohort is wonderfully diverse.

At primary, there was a girl in my DD’s class who was absolutely adored by staff, constantly praised as exceptionally academic, musical and simply amazing. She was class rep for years, house captain, always given the lead roles in school plays with solo singing parts. A lovely girl, but the preferential treatment was obvious. My DD, by contrast, was very much in the background and rarely singled out or encouraged to shine, which was frustrating to her at the time.

That girl was always top in maths and English and even got sports opportunities despite not being particularly sporty. When it came to the 11+, though, my DD passed with flying colours, while the other girl got an average result and didn’t get into the highly sought after grammar. Her mum was stunned, having been led to believe her daughter was a genius.

The difference wasn’t ability, my DD isn’t more naturally talented or academic. She’s just kept working steadily, and we approached preparation strategically. In the end, it really was about consistent effort and focused prep.

IME, generalising here but there is tendency with white British middle class parents to value inherent cleverness and 'making memories' over hard work and knuckling down. It is a cultural thing. I have no doubt whatsoever though that this other girls will be getting top GCSEs grades despite not getting into the grammar school. At the end of the day, it really is about parental interest in education and children can still do absolutely well in a bog standard comprehensive school if they apply themselves.

My DD did some prep with me on VR and did a short course on exam technique that lasted a week. Bucks isn’t super selective so we didn’t do much - back in the day. I don’t know what I would do now. The exam is different but I’m not sure the schools get different dc as a result. They have just made it a huge pay day for tutors.

You cannot really cram for a week. Far too late. Your dc won’t improve vocabulary for example. Test dates are around 9 - 11 September so no doubt dc cram for the whole of the holidays. It’s all rather sad.

The situation in my part of London is the same and we are moving out partly for this reason. I know lots of families who have come to a similar conclusion and have typically moved to the Shires to access a leafy, high-achieving comp. No one wants to put their child through the crazily intense tutoring, or for them to be in such a vanishingly tiny cultural minority - a genuinely diverse intake, absolutely, but not a monoculture.

While I attended one of these grammars myself and loved it, I’m also slightly put off by my old school’s present hyper-focus on STEM subjects at the expense of all else - something which has come about in part because many of the cultures within the school prioritise these areas. Having visited the school last year, the despondency among members of the Humanities and Arts teaching staff (a few of whom had taught me back in the day!) was quite palpable - STEM was very much the only game in town, and we want something a bit more holistic for DD.

Yeah, it's strange the way that the concept of 'grammar school' has evolved over time... whilst the word dates back to medieval times (meaning a place where kids would go primarily to learn Latin), the modern meaning of it has had three incarnations really:

(1) in the mid 20th Century as part of the tripartite system, the only type of school that would provide a genuinely academic education, leading to O levels and A levels;
(2) in the late 20th Century, post comprehensives, the surviving grammars (other than perhaps in a few areas such as NI & Kent) were odd little survivors of the old system, pretty much providing segregation for segregation's sake (since all schools offered O levels and then GCSE's) for upper middle class (mostly white) families; and
(3) now in the 21st century still a very niche thing, mostly (outside of a few areas) offering: (i) segregation; and (ii) an unusually high STEM focus, primarily for Indian families.

Each has the same name, and in most cases occupies the same buildings, but is really an entirely different sort of thing. Do I believe that it's a good thing for the state to fund these schools in the 21st century? I suppose I'm not sure really. I don't think it does a lot of harm - the late 20th century logic, that the surviving grammar schools turn all the nearby comps into secondary moderns, barely applies to the current model. where so many of the GS things are Indian kids car-pooled in from outside the area. Does it do any good? I'm really not sure. The amount of funding per head the kids get is basically the same as any other state school.

I find some of the framing here a bit uncomfortable if I’m honest.

A strong STEM focus and a culture of hard work aren’t negatives — they’re just values some families prioritise.

For context, both my boys passed the 11+ and we still didn’t choose a grammar. We opted for an independent instead because the pastoral care and environment suited them better.

So this isn’t a “defending grammars at all costs” post. But I don’t think it’s fair to imply the schools are the way they are because certain families have somehow made them narrow or unbalanced.

Different schools suit different children. Wanting a more holistic environment is completely reasonable. But equally, wanting a rigorous academic one isn’t something that needs explaining or apologising for either.

Doesn't work in my area as we have NO comprehensives, only grammar and secondaries. Very few secondary students get 8/9s as they are not taught to that level...hardly any do higher Maths, so they cannot get above a grade 5!

Surely the reason for low numbers of pupils achieving 8 or 9 at GCSE is because the majority of the bright kids have gone to grammar schools?

Teachers know that there will be ‘grammar-standard’ kids who don’t make it to the grammar, for example they are a late developer, moved into the area after the 11+ was sat, recently arrived in the UK and their English is not up to scratch, or are like my DC1. I find the idea that a school wouldn’t offer higher tier maths to those who are capable unlikely. In the 1980s my DM used to teach in a secondary modern with lots of immigrant kids and got a lot of them through Physics O-Level!

There are a few whi can take higher tier, but comprehensive and secondaries are notthe same, regardless ofthe grammars creaming off the top.

Cranbrook now admits day pupils in Yr. 7 and still admits lots of pupils from state primaries as well as fee-paying schools.

Parents don’t have to pay tax for their child to obtain a place in a state school. In general families need to be resident to apply for a place, with some exceptions such children of serving servicemen and women who are relocating back to the UK or moving within the UK.

No but why should they get a place in a grammar school over someone who actually lives here

I don’t agree with it at all

This. I teach in state school, its horrendous. I live near agrammar school, its all Asians. They just push their kids hard.

There is a famous judgement from 1990, the Greenwich judgement, where the London Borough of Greenwich was found to have acted unlawfully in prioritising admission for its own resident children in school admissions. That judgement still informs decisions today.

Not all south Asiana are high achieving. DS's primary year was mostly asian. But there were broadly two group. Academic superstars who has super pushy parents who sent them to all tuitions. And another group happy to waste time playing playstation and Xbox.

Sums up what is wrong with the UK if this is the case