Factors on deciding between private and state

[MaybeNeverSoon]

We are considering private secondary school for our daughter currently in year four. She has one younger sister who would follow three years later.

They are both currently at a lovely state primary.

Having always assumed we would send them private for secondary, we are now having to consider the decision carefully as costs are higher than we anticipated and our salaries perhaps not quite as high as we’d have hoped.

Please could I ask if there are any other factors you’d add to the below pros and cons list? I didn’t go to private school so some of my thoughts may be misguided.

We live in Wimbledon park and would look at day schools as close as possible, so we are looking at c£30k a year fees plus extras, rising each year. Our local state school options are fine but not brilliant.

State
PROS
More grounded view on life.
Will be able to walk / travel easily to school.
No cost!
Shorter school holidays.

CONS
Larger class sizes.
Potentially more disruption to learning.
Teachers potentially less able to focus on the individual due to other pressures.
Fundamentally - that my girls might not achieve their absolute best possible academic outcome.

Private
PROS
Hopefully / presumably a higher quality and more individualised education.
Potentially higher grades achieved at gcse and a level.
More opportunities for clubs and activities.
A “network” or cohort which may be beneficial to them throughout their lives / careers.

CONS
Placing us under financial pressure for ten years.
Longer school holidays (we both work full time).
Likely to have to travel further for school. Friends may also live further away.
Potentially giving my girls the impression that privilege is normal / to be taken for granted.
I would presume we’d be amongst the least wealthy families, and therefore our daughters might feel like they can’t “keep up with the Joneses” in terms of holidays / size of house etc.
Potential impact of positive discrimination in the future for both university and jobs.

I think another negative of private school is the children missing out on the things that all that extra money could pay for. Parents often choose to sacrifice many luxuries in order to send their children private, which is admirable, but don’t always consider that it’s also a big sacrifice for the children. I’m not saying this is the case in your situation though.

The only question you need to answer is do you have enough cash to fund them until age 18. There is nothing worse than people running out of money and pulling their children out of the school and putting them into a state school with a place.

If you’re are questioning your cash - don’t do it - 100%

Wimbledon Park are you in the catchment for Tiffin etc - go grammar / great state school if you’re worried about cash. Not fair to show your children the really nice independent schools with nice grounds and can’t afford it.

The rest is questionable depending on your children. You become more of a taxi to friends (some can live 1 hr away) equally sports matches can be talking different county sometimes 🤣 lots of driving / time. Compared to a local state school with local friends.

Worrying about cash go state / grammar

having been through a similar decision, I would say go for state and save the money for uni/house deposit/stress free life. Private school students will have to get higher grade to get into some unis now anyway. If your girls don’t settle/are not thriving then you can look at moving, there are always spaces coming up, you could move in year 8 or 9 or into sixth form. But you will have saved some fees, avoided the painful 11+ process and know that you had tried state. My child started at a selective private and lost confidence academically in such a strong cohort. Now back in state, the confidence is rebuilding.

I honestly don’t think that sending them to a private school will give them a less grounded view of life. That’s really up to how you parent. If you can afford to send both children I would! If you live in Wimbledon park I assume you’re considering KCS and Wimbledon common preparatory?

I have three in private and honestly with the jump in school fees I do think we’d be better off in state with tutoring.

The network is brilliant though.

Thank you @Nothankyov we would be looking at private secondary for a bright and creative but sensitive girl - ideally not too pressured with strong pastoral care. So not looking at prep schools and I have two girls, no boys.

I imagine we would go to see schools like Surbiton, Putney and Wimbledon High and maybe also Emmanuel, Ibstock, Lady Eleanor Holles. But I haven’t shortlisted schools yet because as another poster wisely says, we are not going to view these schools unless we are certain we can afford it.

Another poster mentioned Tiffin. I’m not sure my daughter could handle the pressure there nor is it a convenient journey for us, although we do live in one of the postcodes it accepts.

State and use the money for enrichment and tutoring if necessary.

Tiffin is a grammar school, as I’m sure you know and very competitive. I hated the 11+ drama. Only did it once and ended up sending him private in the end. If you can afford it I would definitely send them private. Both Surbiton and Wimbledon high are excellent schools

Thank you, yes, the Tiffin application process is not something I’d want to put my daughter through. But I do appreciate with all the private schools we might consider she will have to sit an assessment. I actually should have put that in the ‘Cons’ box for private!!

Yes that’s true - and even though the assessments are different than the ones for the 11plus they are much easier. So if they are academic they won’t have any issues
with it.

Thank you @RandomUsernameHere we would have to scale back on holidays and also remain in our (modest but nice!) house longer term. Naively I thought this would not really impact the girls if they are on the whole nurtured at home and at school but perhaps I need to have it as a consideration, thank you.

Looking at my friends, a common thread is that kids need their parents a lot more when they're teenagers than they do when they're small.
What happens if your sensitive daughter has mental health problems, starts going off the rails or starts school refusing? That's a lot easier to manage if you aren't tied into school fees for her and her sister. Same if your boss changes and suddenly you want to retain or move into a lower-paid career. Or if something happens to your parents.
What state school gives you is the flexibility for you or your husband to change jobs, cut down your hours or take a career break if necessary. Hopefully it won't be necessary, but don't underestimate how valuable that is if you need it.
Having spare money to throw at things like music lessons, holidays, counseling, theatre tickets etc is nice too. Teenagers are when kids get expensive.
I also think it's best to think in terms of School A rather than School B. Our local state schools include a 300-year-old grammar which outperforms Roedean, two ex-private schools with facilities to match, and a comprehensive which looks and feels like a prison. Our private options are a tiny school with high SEN, an extremely Christian school or a school an hour's train ride away. It doesn't make sense to think of those as state vs private but rather which of these schools would be best for my child.

Private school students will have to get higher grade to get into some unis now anyway.

This is overly simplistic.

Many universities make contextual offers, but those are not "AAA for all private schools, ABB for all state schools". The majority of pupils at state schools will not get a contextual offer either - they are often (deprived) postcode based, FSM, first in family to go to uni, the specific school does not typically send many kids to uni etc etc.

What happens if your sensitive daughter has mental health problems, starts going off the rails or starts school refusing?

I take your point here re career changes - but private school may give access to counsellors on the premises and this is something that would be worth checking.

What are your girls like?

If they are naturally bright with supportive parents and a good level of self motivation, then they will thrive academically in most schools - especially as you will have the funds to supplement the state offering with tutors etc as required.

If they find academic work difficult and/or need a bit of a push to motivate themselves, then they may benefit from the smaller class sizes and extra attention that a private school can provide.

I would also think about their confidence levels. A shy child or a child that's lacking in confidence might benefit from the opportunities that private schools have to offer. Having said that, it's easy to supplement a state education with plenty of extracurricular stuff outside of school, so you can DIY this side of things if you are willing to invest the effort.

Personally, I think the biggest factor in how well a child does has more to do with their parents and their home environment than the school. And you clearly care deeply about their education and their development, so they will probably thrive wherever you decide to send them.

Unless money no object or the local schools hell holes I would start state then if it doesn’t work you can move them. It’s harder to go in the other direction. Us and majority of our friends went state and have happy well balanced university bound dc with lots of nice friends. Genuinely don’t get what we would have been paying those vast fees for. We live in a nice place though.

Why don’t you shortlist the schools you like, regardless if they’re state or private & go to visit them/ rank them based on the data / look at their websites etc. See which come out best for your daughter & then, if it’s the private option, weigh up the financials. We found www.goodschoolsguide.co.uk helpful for in depth reviews.

It depends on the private school and the child. I would think in Wimbledon state schools will be quite good. My niece went to private from Nursery (expensive, well known school) and my DD's friend went to a local, small private school. DD did much, much better in her GCSEs than both of them at a state school (school had GCSE average of 4.7 but DD did extremely well). She's not 'gifted', I wouldn't say any brighter than those girls who went privately but school gave her a lot of confidence. She wasn't put into middle sets as she would have been in a high achieving school or put under loads of pressure, just very much encouraged, celebrated and nurtured. I wish I had sent my older son there (he went to a high achieving school but was an average student), absolutely useless for his self confidence. The teaching was good as they had to engage a lot of very unmotivated kids. Niece from posh school now at a state sixth form college.

So, all in all, it's a bit of luck really but decent state schools can be much better than average private schools. And if your child isn't outstanding they can also be better for confidence than high achieving schools which can be dismissive of more average students who may excel elsewhere.

Thank you everyone. All very helpful.

Saving in earnest will need to begin ASAP before we can book to tour the state schools at the beginning of the next school year. I wish I had been to see them this year!

I think our area is characterised by some average / fine state school options and top performing private day schools which are fairly easily accessible either by public transport or by school bus. If we lived near a top performing state school I would of course prefer that, and take off the financial pressure.

I think the “best” state schools we would get offers for from our house are Ricards Lodge and Harris Academy Wimbledon.

If you live in a city likely teens will mix socially anyway - dd2s closest friends are mainly at different local private schools. Lots of movement private to state at 6th form. It’s hard to answer really as it’s so area specific.

That said unless money is no object I would want to be very sure it would be worth the outlay. It might be if the state schools aren’t good but if they are frankly I would struggle
to justify that big a spend for some extra sport. Both mine joined local sports clubs anyway which sorted that for fraction of the cost.

Context for my opinion: I have had DC at a mix of private, state comp, and grammar. I grew up in the US and attended the equivalent of all three of those plus some HE early on and then private full-boarding for my last 4 years, while all of my siblings attended a variety of non-selective state schools the whole way through.

Compare the specific schools you're considering, not state vs private. Look at how you think each school will serve your individual children. There is simply too much variety in both the state and public sector to speak in generalities, and each child and family will be different.

Consider both year size and class size and whether your DC is one who you think will be particularly affected by either (positively or negatively). Don't forget to consider how year-group size will affect when/if setting occurs and the number of options available (academic and non-academic) as they move up the school.

Look at both the compulsory, the "expected" and the available-but-truly-optional co-curriculars and extras for the specific private schools (and be sure to consider what is included in price and what isn't). Some private schools deliver their value through long-days that include all sorts of non-academic offerings, and this is great if you have a child and family who really lean into that. But it's neutral or a negative if you have a child or family who will benefit from unstructured afternoons/evenings and weekends, have a child who has narrow-interests compared to what's required by a private school (pay close attention to required team sports participation!), or just don't want school to be their entire social world. Conversely, not paying school fees frees up money for extras but means that each extra will come with an additional time commitment from parents (finding and registering, transport) and is a brand new social setting for the DC and parents to navigate.

I actually disagree with blanket statements about not doing private if you can't commit to paying all the way through 6th form (I think that's too simplistic) but do consider what 16+ options might look like. What is the 16+ provision at each school you're considering and what are the requirements for continuing on? How many Y11 students stay on, where do others go (and why), and do they have a significant additional intake? What other local options are available and what is competition like to get into them at 16+? Is there a dramatic environment difference between the secondary you're considering and other local options? I think a lot of DC actually benefit from moving at 16+ and (funnily enough) it can be the ones that are most prone to clinging to comfortable, known environments and thus are drawn to small pastoral secondaries; spending 7 years in the same small setting can make the uni transition even more daunting. But if they feel like they're the only one "having" to leave then it's likely to feel like a punishment that's being forced on them, and in some areas it can be stressful to try to secure desirable places at 16+.

It is absolutely ok to visit schools before figuring out what you can afford/will offer. Just don't bring your daughters or talk to them about what certain schools have or don't have. You can casually float hypotheticals by talking about a coworker's DC if need be to get your DD's thoughts, but do it neutrally and don't name schools.

To add...

Don't forget to take a look at what local options have main or large intakes at 13+ if you stay in state for now. You're in an area where 11+ transition is the norm but there's still plenty of movement at 13+ and it's good to remember that there's an option to move if wherever she starts at 7+ turns out to be a poor fit.

If you’d have to save to pay for secondary would you be able to save for uni costs as well, because thats another 3 years minimum to pay for each.

@MaybeNeverSoon we are very much in the same area. Your best options state non-selective are Ricards and, if you are in catchment (depending on where you are in WP) St Cecilia. Then Harris in Wimbledon.
Tiffin is quite a process, as you say but the process for some of the most academic schools mentioned is not that much easier in cases (just different) and definitely require some form of prep even if girls are academic (not necessarily tutoring but at least ensuring that they have covered all the curriculum and that they are familiar with the type of test). Wimbledon High is your closest and a great school (it was our choice after going through 11-plus three years ago and our DD is very happy there). Putney High is also very convenient and great on the academics too. Other schools you might want to look into as very accessible from Wimbledon Park are Emanuel, KGS and Ibstock (all co-ed) and, a bit further away, Surbiton High (thought the school bus makes it easier) and Streatham and Clapham High and Sutton High (ditto). LEH a tad further away (still school bus). And also St John's in Leatherhead and Epsom College, both co-ed, are do-able from Wimbledon Park though require further travel. So, for girls, in this area, the issue becomes which ones to opt for.

As others have said, my advice would be to collect information on the schools (including by visiting and talking with people that have gone through the process recently) and assess what would be your ranking once all factors, including finances, are considered. Ultimately, you know your situation and your children better than anyone else and what matters to you and them. The factors you mention above are indeed the right things to look into but only you know the relatively weight to give to each of them... and visiting the school would make it clearer (I hesitate to call it 'vibe' but it is definitely a key factor).

PS Feel free to pm me - very happy to share what I took away from the process.

Just read the threads on here about state schools. My word. Some of them sound horrific. Decision made.