Factors on deciding between private and state

[MaybeNeverSoon]

We are considering private secondary school for our daughter currently in year four. She has one younger sister who would follow three years later.

They are both currently at a lovely state primary.

Having always assumed we would send them private for secondary, we are now having to consider the decision carefully as costs are higher than we anticipated and our salaries perhaps not quite as high as we’d have hoped.

Please could I ask if there are any other factors you’d add to the below pros and cons list? I didn’t go to private school so some of my thoughts may be misguided.

We live in Wimbledon park and would look at day schools as close as possible, so we are looking at c£30k a year fees plus extras, rising each year. Our local state school options are fine but not brilliant.

State
PROS
More grounded view on life.
Will be able to walk / travel easily to school.
No cost!
Shorter school holidays.

CONS
Larger class sizes.
Potentially more disruption to learning.
Teachers potentially less able to focus on the individual due to other pressures.
Fundamentally - that my girls might not achieve their absolute best possible academic outcome.

Private
PROS
Hopefully / presumably a higher quality and more individualised education.
Potentially higher grades achieved at gcse and a level.
More opportunities for clubs and activities.
A “network” or cohort which may be beneficial to them throughout their lives / careers.

CONS
Placing us under financial pressure for ten years.
Longer school holidays (we both work full time).
Likely to have to travel further for school. Friends may also live further away.
Potentially giving my girls the impression that privilege is normal / to be taken for granted.
I would presume we’d be amongst the least wealthy families, and therefore our daughters might feel like they can’t “keep up with the Joneses” in terms of holidays / size of house etc.
Potential impact of positive discrimination in the future for both university and jobs.

This is a very good point.

I know I'm going to get lots of pushback over this, but there's also a higher chance of them turning into arrogant twats than if they go to state school. I went to a very good state school and my group of friends all got top grades and many of us went to Oxbridge. I went to a Russell Group uni. At that uni and in my subsequent career, I met a lot of people who had been to private school, and there was absolutely a higher amount of know-it-all, brash, show-offy twats than among my state school friends.

I am NOT saying that this describes most private-school graduates, but I do think there's a higher rate of young people who absolutely adore themselves coming out of private schools than state schools.

In terms of the best chance of academic success, I think much of that is down to the home environment and the child's ability and effort. If a child is bright and motivated, and has parents who support academics, that's most of the battle. You could always get her extra tutoring if you feel she needs it.

My daughter did the Tiffin thing though we eventually opted for a private school (DD left in the summer so this is a while back). I do not think the Tiffin process was significantly worse than the private school exams, though obviously because of money and staffing the private school was able to make the process more friendly. The exams were not massively different and I would recommend trying for Tiffin, maybe with a bit of tutoring, if you think your daughter has a good shot at LEH, Putney or Wimbledon High. If you think your daughter's realistic option is Surbiton or Ibstock then Tiffin may be a stretch.

What swung it for us was a much broader curriculum, in particular languages which was something my daughter was already interested in. If you have a child who is much more focused on sciences or maths then I think Tiffin would be just as good as the private schools you have mentioned. I would highly recommend drilling down into what options for GCSE look like and what is actually offered at GCSE especially if your daughter is more likely to be interested in humanities and arts subjects. Triple science looks v similar at most schools and most grammars or independents will offer it - most comprehensives will offer it as well for the higher attaining students. The breadth and availability of other subjects can look a bit different especially if there is a constraint on what children can pick at GCSE options time. For us it was very important that DD had a wide range of languages to pick from and that she could do at least two languages at GCSE (she could have done four but didn't in the end). I was also keen that she should go somewhere that didn't mandate a humanity like history or geography at GCSE because I thought she was unlikely to want to do these things (and she didn't).

Like @QuiteAJourney I also think vibe is key and you should absolutely visit all the schools and see what you think about them. I was appalled by some schools that I thought might be a good fit and equally somewhat charmed by schools that weren't as good on paper.

I don't think the travel matters too much. DD did an hour's commute each way at secondary and was fine with it. More than that would have given me pause for thought and I might have reconsidered. Equally, being further away from friends matters a lot less in the teenage years and actually I love that my daughter has been completely competent at getting herself around London from 11 onwards. It's a life skill!

Sorry, v long. Hopefully helpful in some way!

@MaybeNeverSoon if you are wondering whether you can afford it, you can't afford it. We transferred DS at 8 (same area); DD at 13 (she got into a holy grail cofe on the district line and it was horrific). DS's fees started at about £8k, they ended at about £20k. You need to factor in an additional 20% for trips, music lessons, uniform, lunches, school bus.

My advice to you would be to go and have a look at Epsom. Potentially buy in the Roseberry catchment and do it fast. It is an excellent school. From that address you could also give Nonsuch a go.

The SW London indies are fabulous but ot genuinely sounds as though it would be a stretch too far for your budget. I sympathise, as I know the local state schools.

I completely agree with this. We're nearby & will be deciding between Graveney which has a grammar stream (an option for you to look at) and the co-ed privates. I think the music & education will be good at either, they can do sport of their choice outside school & the biggest things are how happy will your child be & how nice a person will they grow into.

For me personally having seen a lot of state & private educated kids & adults, I think a good state with motivated kids might be best on those fronts for our child.

It's going to be £300k per kid so you have to think of the opportunity cost - getting them on the housing ladder, flexibility for you to retire early etc.

And finally, my expectation is that it would be easier to move state to private later if it's not working for any reason.

Thank you I will DM you now!

GDST are all the same curriculum and a few variations. It suit a certain type of girl in each school and their clubs, trips etc can be extra costs. Some have junior schools so girls already know each other from Reception which should be considered.
Emanuel school has bursaries but scholarships are generous and worth trying for. Trips etc for some get financial assistance so your DC not left out, also year in advance notice. Clubs are free.
Lady Eleanor Holles are like Tiffin, so if pressure to get great grades etc is not what you looking for. Tiffin is worth a try maybe?
Ibstock, a bit marmite.
Check Open days, check bursaries requirements, check scholarships route, check GCSEs curriculum as they differ on what is offered. Also, school fees are not all the same, but do check cost of trips and clubs and fee increase.
The other option is Year 7 to Year 11 private and go to Sixth form state since London have quite a few top states ones eg. Kings Maths, Harris Westminster which are very academic and depends on your child interests.

Consider investing the money you would have spent on private and putting it towards a trust for your kids / spending it on tutoring, enrichment, other "higher yield" educational opportunities

Bear in mind too that a small primary with a small catchment in a place like Wimbledon Park, will have lots of children just like yours with motivated parents who love them and probably work woth the school. A six form entry comp will not be the same and whilst diversity should be embraced, so in our experience, was some very poor behaviour that created almost constant disruption. Year groups of course differ.

We moved not so many miles away when the dc unplugged from school. I'd have had little hesitation sending them to a state school near here. The children are invariably well behaved on the streets and the local buses.

It's always an eyeopener to wait and watch close to a potential school and observe some of the behaviours.

Our biggest issue when we lived in Putney (the dc were 11 in the late noughties) was that not one Wandsworth school offered a choice of modern languages, latin and three separate sciences. (Graveney may have but it was a clunky journey). At the time dd didn't get into PHS and we simply couldn't compute that Surbiton would be better than a small cofe school. We found out too late about a changed ethos.

Thank you @HawaiiWake I’m not sure why I’ve had this impression but I assumed the Tiffin test would be more competitive than some of the indies. My daughter is bright and towards the top of the class in her state primary but I imagine will need a lot of support to do the entry assessments in a pressured environment. We know we will need to start with a tutor ASAP, if we are going down this route.

I need to do more research about where might be too competitive for her, in terms of entry. I hadn’t realised LEH was so competitive, for example, so that is helpful.

@MaybeNeverSoon One thing about a private school is that DDs daily timetable will be in school. You won’t be ferrying around to music and extra tuition and sport. You won’t need to do this and it’s bliss. However you need money to be secure for the years you have planned. If you cannot really afford it, be honest because fees only go ome way, upwards!

Networking: My DDs boarded. They gained friends but no leg up in jobs. However DDs did what they needed to do for themselves! They had ambition and got on with it.

Friends are possibly further away at a day school but you have to accept that. Don’t assume everyone is pleasant at private schools either. However disruptive dc aren’t tolerated.

My DDs went off to school without primary friends and made new friends easily. We live in a grammar county. Only one dd took and passed 11 plus. Other one wasn’t likely to pass so we avoided the drama! I wouldn’t say they did better academically but the clubs and activities available were wonderful and they thoroughly enjoyed them. Not all teaching is first class either. If you get the right private school, it’s great. Ditto state school but the latter is more difficult to find especially with new strict schools that don’t suit everyone. I would never ever have wanted that for DDs. So do be careful about this aspect of state schools.

I think one thing with private schooling which isn't often mentioned it's the huge 'investment', which is actually a risky investment. It doesn't always pay off, and I would say the frequency of that is higher than private schools would have you believe (obviously).

I think the 'investment' puts expectations on the child to succeed, especially if the family needs to make sacrifices for the child to go privately. Some kids can handle that weight and others (usually more sensitive) would find it challenging. Only 1 out of 3 of my kids could have handled that pressure ie. Parents paid a lot for this - I need to do well, I can't mess up, I need to work hard. My son felt like that when we paid for tutoring and we never went on about it.

It also can create resentment in parents if their child doesn't do well, doesn't make the most of it, or even does worse than state school friends. This has happened to people I know, and you read about it on here too. I think that's why many leave for state sixth forms. None of those feelings are particularly healthy and are something to be aware of.

"or even does worse than state school friends" - the horror! 🤣 I went to a good state school, and my friends and I all got straight As at A-level and then went to Oxbridge or Russell Group unis. Meanwhile, all the kids of my parents' friends who went to private school - including Roedean - bombed out. Later, when flat-sharing and working with people who had gone to private school, I had almost always done better than them academically. Sorry, against this background the "or EVEN does worse than state school friends!" just made me laugh! I also remember having a good laugh to myself at how much my parents' friends had paid for private school and I outperformed them all for free!

We have friends at LEH and they don't describe the school as very competitive.

@SoftBalletShoes What “pay off” means to some isn’t what it means to you. Of course clever dc are on state schools. Plenty in grammars. There is more to education than results though. It’s the 7 years and what breadth dc get whilst they are learning. Private schools offer better facilities quite often and frequently far better art, drama and sport. Many parents pay for this alone. It’s not all about results and university.

I think a lot of the big name schools tend to be described as competitive, a hothouse etc by people who don't have any direct experience of them. They assume that good results must mean lots of pushing. In fact, the good results tend to be directly related to how difficult the entrance exams are - if you select a bunch of very clever children they will probably do pretty well as long as you teach them the things they need to know.

We have experience of one of the more selective schools and I can honestly say that they were absolutely at pains all the time to dial down the competitiveness and encourage girls to work collaboratively. My daughter used to call it the coolhouse.

Disagree entirely - LEH has been consistently highly academic for decades. I’d say the Tiffin tests are the hardest (given the thousands that apply) but few “non academic” options in sw London and LEH is certainly not one.

Academic isn't the same thing as fostering a culture of competitiveness, though. There are schools that do this, and schools that try very hard not to. No opinion on LEH either way as I don't know anyone who has been there or is currently attending.

I never said it was not academic.

Exactly.

We have friends at WHS too, great academic results without toxic competitiveness.

Weirdly the most chilled non pushy supportive state in our small city has better results than the “pushier” state schools !

They do have beautiful facilities and, I'd guess, a much "softer" atmosphere. As in, each child being individually nurtured, etc. A friend whose child is at a private middle school was waxing lyrical about how they "just get him." At state, the teachers are under no obligation to coax you to blossom like that, or to "get you," and they don't. In one way, a great private sounds wonderful, and in another, it's a bad thing that the experience doesn't mimic the real world AT ALL. I'd imagine the real world might be a shock to some kids from very nice private schools. Anyway, if money is no object, you wouldn't mind paying 60k a year or so for a couple of kids to go to a good private day school no matter their exam results, but I'm guessing lots of parents have to make sacrifices to send them and wouldn't want to think that their money had simply been spent on nice surroundings.

If people have to weigh up the costs, like OP, it's definitely worth remembering all the life-enhancements that the money could be used for if they went to a good state. (I had ballet, tap, modern dance, and private piano lessons every week, for example.)

I think the decision rests a lot on what the state schools are like near you. I was lucky to be near a good one.

If the state school is decent I would need significant persuasion that it’s worth it.

They seem far nicer to you at private schools though dds friends get hot chocolate and a sympathetic ear if are upset dds state you get told to buck up basically! As a state parent you need to source all the “soft” extras yourself.

I personally think you should assess why you want them to go to private school and assess the pros and cons between the actual schools they will have access to.

It’s widely known that the private school ‘benefits’ (improved confidence, the sports, music opportunities etc) only apply when you start at primary (or are rich enough that you can pay for the extracurriculars to make it happen in primary). From Year 7 the focus for many private and selective secondaries is academics and state school kids often have to study so hard to get in & play so much catch up once they’re there that they don’t have time to enjoy the other benefits when they have time to experience them (realistically year 7 and 8). In some private secondaries you’re not even allowed to take extracurricular music or sports classes unless you already know how to play!

So if you’re expecting the girls to get a whole private school experience then you would realistically enroll them asap in primary.

Dd did a language they didn’t offer at her state with a private tutor and got a really good gcse grade she’s now doing it at a level. So you can fill the gaps yourself if motivated.

The fact that they are far nicer to you at private probably explains the greater confidence that private-school graduates seem to have, compared to state school pupils.

I suppose it makes perfect sense that they would be nicer to you, considering that the parents are paying for a service, unlike at state.