Please do encourage your non-native speaker DC to take MFL for A level if that’s what they would like

[clary]

MFL is my subject – I studied MFL at A level and university, taught MFL at secondary and now tutor and conduct speaking assessments. This isn’t an ad! – just to show I have some knowledge.

Take-up of MFL at GCSE and very much at A level is sadly (my view) diminishing. There are a number of reasons – it’s seen as difficult or not needed, big focus on STEM (which I am not against FWIW).

One suggested reason is because of all the native speakers who will make it much harder to gain a higher grade (esp at A level). I wanted to help people to see that it’s not an issue, and that if their DC is keen on French or German or Spanish or any other language, they should (please) pursue it in some way, whether that’s qualifications or some independent method (Duolingo, travel, online class).

People worry that grade boundaries are unfairly pushed up by the numbers of native speakers, making it impossible for a non-native to get a good grade. But in fact there is no need to be of native speaker standard to gain a top grade – which the AQA spec clearly states. If you get the marks – and they are there to be got – you’ll get the grade. The GCSE and A level exam are not targeted at the high end of a native speaker ability. It’s not easy, you’ll need to work, but what’s the issue with that?

And are the GBs pushed up? Pretty sure they are not. Polish GCSE, for example, which surely is sat in virtually every case by a native speaker – AQA GCSE GBs for a 9-8-7 last year – 196/173/150; GBs for French (mostly not sat by natives) 195/172/150; Spanish (ditto) 195/170/145. Very very similar. More than 80% of those taking Polish GCSE get a grade 7+ – but you can see, that has not affected the GBs. Nor should it IMHO.

And looking at A level, where German is taken by so few students that the % of native speakers must be higher than for French or Spanish (both taken by three times as many) – GBs for A-star and A, 351/304; French 358/325; Spanish 344/303. A higher mark needed to get a top grade in French, not German, even tho the % of natives in French will be lower.

A colleague said to me last year that their DS was in an A level class with a French native speaker – “of course that was a nightmare as he couldn’t do as well as her” – firstly it’s not a contest – you can both get an A-star! Secondly it can be a massive benefit. I had a friend in my A level French class who was amazing at vocab. She was an asset in class and my colleague’s DC's classmate could be too. Ask them vocab, learn the latest idiom from them, they will have interesting views on the social and political issues you need to discuss. It really is a positive.

Also I want to stress that despite what some ppl believe, being a native speaker is not a shoo-in for an A star at A level. For sure it is a help, I would be foolish to deny that. But I have seen native speakers in speaking assessments who have clearly thought they just need to rock up and boom! top grade. They have presented a woefully inadequate IRP form, and not done their homework on the topics. I had a native speaker candidate last year was emphatic that she didn’t need to have read a book or watched a film, as no one had told her about that element of the exam. These students will not get A stars.

I tell you who will tho – a student (native or not) who has worked hard, researched their IRP topic, learned some good vocab, stats and current views on the 12 topics; a student who has learned how to do to do well in the written exams, including summaries (often the downfall of a native speaker IME) and translation tasks; a student who has read the book, watched the film, read around both and acquired the necessary vocab and structures to write cogently about the themes therein. All of that is available to both native and non-native speakers. Some of the very best candidates I have seen in speaking assessments have been native speakers who had clearly done lots and lots of work, and some of the other best have been non-native, who ditto.

All that said – I really don’t advise A level MFL without a strong grounding in vocab and grammar – which usually equates (other factors aside) to a grade 7 at GCSE.

Anyway what a long post! sorry! but I am interested in others’ views and experiences.

@Ubertomusic That’s not the same as a school education so it’s not like for like and it’s taken less seriously. It’s not on school data for a start. It’s a collection of an exam and has little bearing on a MFL degree. These dc are spending time in Poland and just a bit of tuition on a Saturday isn’t full prep by a school.

I was in contact with the department and admissions as DS is disabled.
He didn't go to Bristol in the end as decided to live at home due to disability, but comms from Bristol were clear.

Strong agree. To this date I can talk about genetically modified foods, separation of church and state and nuclear energy more competently in French than I can English. If the whole topic had been in English and I did no work I’d have got worse than I actually did in my MFL A Levels. In fact, I did fail an English General Studies paper because I didn’t know the English word “secular” and only knew “laïcité” in French - and a native English speaker with absolutely no French background.

Native speaking is an advantage but it’s jot actually a test of language, it’s a test of understanding of concepts in another language.

@Ubertomusic In reality, they simply would not care. As long as he had maths and the required grades elsewhere. Most dc never contact a university to talk about their A levels by the way and you wanted to talk about disability so it was not him having a MFL that mattered to them when selecting. However I’m pro MFLs so well done him! But others doing maths won’t be helped by a MFL.

I don't understand why you are telling me anything about my experience. It's bizarre tbh.

You can believe whatever you like, it's fine.

I did MFL at university and the native speakers did exceptionally well in the language components but didn’t always do that well in the modules which were things like history, literature etc despite their language advantage. One person was a native speaker on an ab initio course and still did worse than I did. Do I think it was fair that as a native she was in an ab initio language course- absolutely not tbh.

At A level I didn’t find the disparity as large. There was a native speaker in the French a level course that did not top the class.

Thanks for further interesting replies.

@OhDear111i worked in a school where Urdu and Punjabi were taught and taken by a lot of DC at GCSE and A level. For a lot of the students the writing and reading were a big hurdle.

@BlueOceanFishwhat don’t you buy? For sure living in France will be a big advantage when sitting GCSE French. I have never denied that being a native speaker will make GCSE much easier. You need some guidance on the spec that’s all. I was taking mainly about A level.

My daughter has a degree in modern foreign languages and one that you would imagine would be incredibly sought after by employers but really really isn’t unfortunately
Maybe it will be after we’ve been invaded
Can’t be long now

DD's interest in music is very much classical, so she wasn't that interested in the unit on contemporary French music. (The teacher gave her a list of genres and asked if she could translate them: "I think so, but that doesn't mean I know what they sound like!") However it turned out to be useful when she went to a STEM summer school; on the karaoke night, she braved having a go, but sang a French song because then nobody would know if she was getting it wrong!

@PollyPhonic same! V much a two tribes experience! He was happy to surf between both…

On the degree front, he is aiming to spend a year in France, hopefully Paris, maybe Toulouse, as it’s aerospace he’s studying and he wants to get into Airbus or ESA. Gotta have a dream…. His Uni support study abroad so this is definitely part of the plan. He’s also joined the French club at Uni, which, to bring it back full circle, is full of native speaker students - but he’s quite happy as he says they never speak English on a night out and he has to keep up, so it’s great practice!

Sadly. I think other countries are often less accommodating of foreigners being less than perfect in their language than we are in the UK.
I remember other UK students having a really horrid time on their French exchanges - with some nasty comments from their hosts.
This can compound the poor teaching.

Sadly. I think other countries are often less accommodating of foreigners being less than perfect in their language than we are in the UK.
I remember other UK students having a really horrid time on their French exchanges - with some nasty comments from their hosts.
This can compound the poor teaching.

Some most parts France most definitely don't like it if you speak poor French.

Germany I think is more accepting of poor pronunciation/grammar. My dad speaks German but with a terrible accent and very poor grammar, but he still manages to get by 😆

@MotherOfCatBoy DDs ex boyfriend did a year abroad at Grande Ecole Chalons en Champagne. A Grande Ecole is certainly worth it if available.

My DD who always found languages easy studied Latin, French, German and Spanish for GCSE. She missed out the Art/Music option to accommodate it and only had 2 Spanish lessons each week as 1 classed with the German lessons. A good while ago but she got A* for all of them. She didn't take for A level though which I felt was a great pity but she had to make her own choices. At Uni she did do some more Spanish though as an additional module. She went to Spain for 6 weeks of summer holiday to stay with exchange student and they came to us for a month at Easter. They did this 3 years running and she grew to know her friends family quite well. They are still great friends today 20 years later.

Great post @clary - thank you! My DC1's experience would certainly back this up.

DC1 got a 9 in Spanish at GCSE from a slightly below average comp that only offers one MFL. She went on to do A level Spanish at a better, but still non selective sixth form college. She always felt that speaking was her weakest component, especially in a class with over 50% native speakers, so made sure to really graft for her IRP, ensuring that she had lots of relevant content, complex grammar and vocab. She achieved an A*, including full marks for her IRP.

She's now studying MFL and Linguistics at university, and interestingly there are no native speakers on her course, so it feels like more of a level playing field than A level did! I'm sure AI has already killed most of the MFL specific career pathways, but that's tomorrow's problem, and in the meantime she's really enjoying not just learning the language but really getting stuck into the literature and culture.

I would also add that due to the declining popularity of MFL she found that the UCAS offers came quickly and easily, a couple with offers of scholarship payments. I've no proof, but my guess is that if a young person had their heart set on a particularly popular university then it might be easier to get offers for <subject of choice> plus MFL rather than <subject of choice> single honours.

@StrangewaysHereWeCome That’s been the case for 20 years. Better odds at Oxbridge too. Always add a MFL if you can! 50% native speakers at A level
is huge though. It cannot be avoided that those who aren’t A star type dc will be put off - big time. It’s just making dc feel disadvantaged and they don’t feel that way in history!

Just posting to thank @TheCountessofFitzdotterelfor recommending the Line on ITVX. I’ve started to watch it and am enjoying it very much (I would have adored it as a teen - lots of dramatic and interesting storylines with an insight into French history and culture).

I think when considering bias/fairness its important to think how the average pupil would do? Can an exceptional non native speaker still get an A star? Can a lazy native speaker who doesn't learn the material do badly? Of course.

But let's consider a student of average abilty prepared to put in a typical amount of work. How would a native and non native speaker compare then?

If the answer is that the native speaker is at an advantage and quite a few native speakers are taking the A level then uptake of languages at A level among non native speakers will go down. University admissions are a competition and A levels are too critical to the process for it to be otherwise.

That said when I retire I might take a mfl a level for fun and I won't care (much) what grade I get.

@DoubledTroubleI’ll see you in the speaking assessment! (I do quite a few assessments of adult A level students taking it privately, always good to see).

I’m so glad you’re enjoying it!
When I get a moment I might start a thread in TV and see if anyone wants to join me in worrying about poor little Gustave, admiring Lucienne’s hand knits and deploring Hortense’s questionable life choices.

This doesn’t make sense. Hong Kongers speak Cantonese rather than Mandarin so they’re not Mandarin native speakers.

@DoubledTrouble Sadly “average” dc won’t take MFLs. The numbers taking them is plummeting. It’s also frequently mentioned as a subject dc cannot manage and want to drop on MN. The tendency is to do more and more stem but studying for a MFL is too difficult. I rather think the all round brightest dc can do MFLs but others don’t put the effort in.

It’s interesting that Cambridge list them amongst their preferred subjects for non Stem degrees. So they know they are challenging and, as they say, good prep for many of their courses, not just MFL ones. It’s a huge shame dc are put off taking them but it’s much easier to take media studies and business.

Yes but the languages are very similar- it’s just that Cantonese still uses traditional characters vs simplified characters and there are some differences in pronunciation and tones. However a native Cantonese speaker still has an absolutely massive advantage over someone who’s never been exposed to Chinese characters before. Also a lot of younger Hong Kongers do speak mandarin fluently or may have one parent of mainland origin so although not completely native they have a big head start.

True, the Chinese diaspora in Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia have school curriculum that teaches Mandarin and also, Mandarin TV drama channels and news. English families I have met fluent in Mandarin, had DC sign up for Mandarin courses with Chinese universities, so the fluency and standard are very high. The stay in China and travel was amazing. The jobs offers in International companies were numerous not because of GCSE or A levels or UK universities but the certification from Chinese universities.