Please do encourage your non-native speaker DC to take MFL for A level if that’s what they would like

[clary]

MFL is my subject – I studied MFL at A level and university, taught MFL at secondary and now tutor and conduct speaking assessments. This isn’t an ad! – just to show I have some knowledge.

Take-up of MFL at GCSE and very much at A level is sadly (my view) diminishing. There are a number of reasons – it’s seen as difficult or not needed, big focus on STEM (which I am not against FWIW).

One suggested reason is because of all the native speakers who will make it much harder to gain a higher grade (esp at A level). I wanted to help people to see that it’s not an issue, and that if their DC is keen on French or German or Spanish or any other language, they should (please) pursue it in some way, whether that’s qualifications or some independent method (Duolingo, travel, online class).

People worry that grade boundaries are unfairly pushed up by the numbers of native speakers, making it impossible for a non-native to get a good grade. But in fact there is no need to be of native speaker standard to gain a top grade – which the AQA spec clearly states. If you get the marks – and they are there to be got – you’ll get the grade. The GCSE and A level exam are not targeted at the high end of a native speaker ability. It’s not easy, you’ll need to work, but what’s the issue with that?

And are the GBs pushed up? Pretty sure they are not. Polish GCSE, for example, which surely is sat in virtually every case by a native speaker – AQA GCSE GBs for a 9-8-7 last year – 196/173/150; GBs for French (mostly not sat by natives) 195/172/150; Spanish (ditto) 195/170/145. Very very similar. More than 80% of those taking Polish GCSE get a grade 7+ – but you can see, that has not affected the GBs. Nor should it IMHO.

And looking at A level, where German is taken by so few students that the % of native speakers must be higher than for French or Spanish (both taken by three times as many) – GBs for A-star and A, 351/304; French 358/325; Spanish 344/303. A higher mark needed to get a top grade in French, not German, even tho the % of natives in French will be lower.

A colleague said to me last year that their DS was in an A level class with a French native speaker – “of course that was a nightmare as he couldn’t do as well as her” – firstly it’s not a contest – you can both get an A-star! Secondly it can be a massive benefit. I had a friend in my A level French class who was amazing at vocab. She was an asset in class and my colleague’s DC's classmate could be too. Ask them vocab, learn the latest idiom from them, they will have interesting views on the social and political issues you need to discuss. It really is a positive.

Also I want to stress that despite what some ppl believe, being a native speaker is not a shoo-in for an A star at A level. For sure it is a help, I would be foolish to deny that. But I have seen native speakers in speaking assessments who have clearly thought they just need to rock up and boom! top grade. They have presented a woefully inadequate IRP form, and not done their homework on the topics. I had a native speaker candidate last year was emphatic that she didn’t need to have read a book or watched a film, as no one had told her about that element of the exam. These students will not get A stars.

I tell you who will tho – a student (native or not) who has worked hard, researched their IRP topic, learned some good vocab, stats and current views on the 12 topics; a student who has learned how to do to do well in the written exams, including summaries (often the downfall of a native speaker IME) and translation tasks; a student who has read the book, watched the film, read around both and acquired the necessary vocab and structures to write cogently about the themes therein. All of that is available to both native and non-native speakers. Some of the very best candidates I have seen in speaking assessments have been native speakers who had clearly done lots and lots of work, and some of the other best have been non-native, who ditto.

All that said – I really don’t advise A level MFL without a strong grounding in vocab and grammar – which usually equates (other factors aside) to a grade 7 at GCSE.

Anyway what a long post! sorry! but I am interested in others’ views and experiences.

I did languages as part of my degree and despite me applying to multinational (including French owned) companies, they simply were not interested in them. This was quite a while ago now so if companies were so disinterested in employing graduates with languages then, I can’t see how today’s school pupils would be wanting to bother. I think it’s a mistake for MFL to be downgraded so much.

It seems that those saying "yes native speakers do affect GBs" are mostly adducing the example of DC they know who didn't do so well. It's surely possible that they were not well taught. My stats on the GBs suggest that native speakers do not have a huge effect. If you get 360/400 marks you will get an A star. Yes that's a high %, but it's not far from an A star in other A levels - maths for example. As I said, if native speakers really did affect GBs so much, the GB for a 9 in Polish GCSE would be much much higher as it is virtually only sat by native speakers.

The marks are there to be won. It's not an easy A level though, I do agree. My own DD, who for various reasons did much less well than hoped in her A levels, got a C.

@BasilPersil I agree it is sadly not always well taught. And @IlovedLadybirdbooks I also agree, let's learn languages for the love of them! I still am :) but sadly A level is so often focused on grades and can I get the grade I need for uni? That was why that was my focus.

Actually I just checked the GBs for GCSE in 2018 (first year of new spec) and they were actually higher by a few marks – so on that basis it's easier now to get a 7-8-9. Not that I think that actually, as a lot of work is done ot ensure parity across the years in terms of exam level.

I do think the GCSE syllabus teaches useful things actually - a student with a good grade should be able to talk about their family, their hobbies, their school, some social and environmental issues, travel, staying fit and healthy and customs of the country they are learning about. Not bad surely. Obvs if they don't use it after GCSE then they are likely to lose it - which is why I really advocate continuing learning.

Interesting. I have actually found MFL have helped me in my career.

A few years ago, I simultaneously translated and edited a book about a very technical subject. I actually doubt there would have been anyone who else in the world who could have done this because obviously I needed high level MFL and English skills and also a strong understanding of the very technical subject matter. It was far too complex for Google Translate. But yes, I did also used to be occasionally employed as a translator and that all dried up once Google Translate became very good.

For many years, I also managed an international survey which was translated into several languages. It would have been really difficult to do without a strong grounding in several languages.

But the grade boundaries are not the key thing - it’s the fact that only a certain % can get the highest grades and it is easier for the native speakers so they take a significant chunk of the top grades, thus outcompeting some of the non native speakers. In other words if no non native speakers took the exams more of the others would get higher grades. Just as if people with physics degrees took physics gcse / a level they would dominate the top grades and shunt everyone else down.

It is perfectly possible for non native speakers to get the top grades but it IS a competition- the grade boundaries are adjusted to ensure that there are people at each grade and only a small number get the highest grades.

Yes this is my understanding. They adjust the grade boundaries to keep the proportion of grades roughly the same between years - ie they assume that the exam difficulty varies more than the ability of the cohort ( likely correct) but it is therefore the case that the grade awarded is relative rather than absolute. So when considering A level choices you have to consider your strength relative to the cohort and particularly in minority languages like mandarin, there will be a v high proportion of native speakers so the effort required by a non native speaker to get a top grade will be higher than in other subjects where there’s a more level playing field. For YP applying for Unis based on predicted grades where the language isn’t required for their course, they’re better to get an A in another subject rather than a B in mandarin.

Obviously if someone is passionate about languages then go for it but if not required for Uni course, it possibly doesn’t make sense.

In DD’s grammar school, students are doing French, German, Spanish and Latin to AS level, but fewer take it to A level. So the entries will show low A level participation but quite a few are doing it to AS.

The Lilly app on DuoLingo is pretty good. If we want lots of students learning another language and still being a very strong Maths/STEM country (I think we are as so many pupils do Maths A level), we need early immersion. The tech is there now with the AI apps if parents push for it. In most other countries, parents are motivated from an early age to get their DCs to learn English and then the politicians encourage it. We sort of need a cultural change here and an understanding how learning a foreign language builds neural pathways and is excellent extension for young kids. The French they learn in eg primary is not enough to kickstart it.

I pushed DD to take French for A level even tho I don't speak it much at home (faster to shout in English 😬) I (foolishly) thought it would be an easy A level for her to pass and leave space for her other subjects. HA! Well joke on me, she came to me with questions I had no idea how to answer, she had a teacher telling the half natives that basically they were cheating and everyday she looked at me resentfully. We were both surprised she got an A, and she promptly said she hate french, french people and she particularly hate people telling her she looks very french (in the way she dress, we gots to have something around the neck while going out! Neck colds are deadly). So yeah do MFL but with caution.
Also no need to mention that I did NOT make that mistake with DS 😬.

That's interesting. I'm in Wales and have found the opposite in English medium schools I've worked in (not sure if you were talking about English medium or Welsh medium). MFL take up is low and students tell me they are not choosing one because they have to do Welsh GCSE and don't want to do two languages. But I can see how it might work the other way in a Welsh medium school where students are more used to being bilingual.

My daughter is, however, taking french, German and Welsh GCSEs in an English medium school, but she's the last cohort on her school to be offered German, now it will just be french. And even before we knew that we knew German AL wasn't likely to be an option for her as there wasn't usually enough take up to run it, and most other local schools and colleges either didn't offer it at all, or again tended to not have the numbers for AL. I think some schools round here offer Spanish instead now but it frequently tends to be French or Spanish, not both.

This is an interesting thread thank you, as my DD considering French AL for next year.

This is an interesting one - MFL is my subject too despite having no family background - but I worked very hard to become fluent (books, watching films etc.).

DS has also done well at GCSE - this is due to a combination of factors. He definitely had some advantage from holidays etc (although this stopped at Covid) but equally important was good language teaching, being able to pick 2 languages he liked (& avoid one he didn’t) and developing good study habits.

@BasilPersil‘s point about être etc is interesting. I didn’t manage to do much with DS in lockdown, but I did drill him on a few basic verbs & he said later this really helped when going back into class.

I have 2 thoughts on this - one on DS & one on the type of student I was.

For DS - how does he progress as he isn’t taking languages for A-Level because he has chosen a STEM pathway? This seems to be something that other countries do much better than we do. One interesting development that I’ve seen recently is that the Goethe Institut is offering courses for Bronze & Silver D of E skills as that looks a practical way for students to build on GCSE skills.

For non-native speakers though, we really don’t make it easy. There is some foreign language content on the BBC iplayer & other free ones, but it is poor compared to what’s on offer in other countries (I can remember being in Germany years ago & the morning kids TV had Peppa pig back to back in English and German). It also can be a bit edgy / dark / highbrow - rather than just something for enjoyment. Netflix does seem to be better - but there’s no reason why the national broadcasters can’t just have an obvious study section of iplayer etc with a rolling foreign language programne of cartoons, films etc. (& also interesting programming for other subjects - proper programmes rather than short clips). Books are similar - again this was really brought home to be in Germany where their equivalent of Waterstones had copies of the latest English bestseller (50 Shades or similar) stacked up behind the counter waiting for people to collect and a well curated foreign literature section. In my actual Waterstones at the time was a dry selection of dictionaries & the standard A-Level texts like L’Étranger - nothing to tempt an impulse buy (no idea what it has now as I tend to forget that section exists as it wasn’t interesting).

Ultimately, I just find this really sad as we could do so much better as a country.

I think part of the problem is that in most European countries the default second language is English. Everyone learns it and it's seen as important to learn it. The fact that so many films and series are American and widely available also makes it easier.

Whereas in the UK, we don't have a default second language. French, German or Spanish tend to be the choices, but there isn't one single second language that everyone learns. So the facilities for each language are more diluted.

mfl is a great degree - it teaches independence, as well as history, literature and politics and logic. My cohort have universally got excellent jobs- plus you can get into a great uni reasonably easily if you have some apritude. Teaching is awful though in schools

This is interesting. Currently trying to help DD decide what A Levels to choose. She is very academic and working towards getting straight 9s.
We've recently learnt that maths or chemistry A Level are good for the best unis, "so you can prove you are clever" (actual quote from one of her teachers!)
DD loves Spanish and is considering it at A Level (probably with maths).
So if it is so hard to get top grades at Spanish A Level, why is that also not seen as a way to prove "you are clever"?!
I know AI will take most translation career paths away. But I still fail to see how being able to speak another language isn't seen as a really useful skill by employers - if it is relevant to the work obviously.

@StillSittingInACornerIHaunt But I still fail to see how being able to speak another language isn't seen as a really useful skill by employers - if it is relevant to the work obviously.

I touched on this earlier: because the A level curriculum is too abstract and not enough of a guarantee. At work, I have been on interview panels where candidates with A or A in Spanish struggled to understand native speakers. That's why I said some employers give more weight to the certifications of the Instituto Cervantes and the like, ie to the equivalents of the British Council. I'd hire someone who got a C1 (C2 is the highest level) over someone who had an A at A Level.

There is also the point that, unfortunately, unless you want to move to that country and work there, speaking another language is not as useful, work-wise as people think. And I say this as someone who loves reading and watching movies in another language.
Culturally it's very enriching, but work-wise less impactful than most people think. Most people abroad will speak English in business contexts. Even if you speak Spanish, German etc, chances are you will be working with other colleagues who don't, so your foreign counterparties must use English anyway. Whatever your line of work, even if you do business in Germany Spain Italy etc and work on local law contracts, chances are these contracts will often be in English anyway.

Really interesting, thank you.
So then... What is the point of doing MFL at uni or A Level?
I'm not asking to be provocative at all, I'm new to this world of supporting teens to make decisions about education, and things have changed beyond recognition since I was there!
This speaks to my Dds current dilemma.
Obviously the point of doing MFL at uni is that you love it, it inspires you, and enriches you.
That's the point of a lot of potential choices at A Level or uni of course. My DD doesn't want to be in medicine or be an architect etc. she has literally no idea what she wants to do.
But these days, the amount of debt you get into - and additional debt that I now think I will need to get into to support her at uni - for me she has to be doing something that creates a path to good employment afterwards.
Hope this isn't too much of a derail... I had no idea about the concept of the impact of native speakers on grades, or that mfl wasn't seen as a good A Level or good degree by employers.

I think the thing holding people back is the poor curriculum for mfl in England (I have no idea what its like elsewhere in the UK), our son had ‘french’ lessons at primary school, the teacher had extremely limited french and they did forty minutes a fortnight.

Where we now live learning a foreign language is compulsory in statutory education, our son has three hours a week of lessons from the age of seven, these hours increase with age, but will also have regular mini tasks, so a mini task in science but done in mfl etc, so students are exposed everyday. Their teachers are also fluent, which makes a huge difference.

We've recently learnt that maths or chemistry A Level are good for the best unis, "so you can prove you are clever"

@StillSittingInACornerIHaunt that is a bit of an odd piece of advice tbh – those A levels are only good for the best unis if relevant. If you don't like maths you are unlikely to do well at A level. If you plan to take French and drama, or English lit, then chem and maths are no help.

"So you can prove you are clever"? blimey. As if an A-star in English lit or history or even (dread thought) sociology doesn't prove that, along with your hard work.

@Fluffypiki do you mean you are a native speaking family and that's why you thought French A level would be an easy win? If so I guess you prove my point that while a native speaker will have an advantage (more or less of one depending on their degree of knowledge) they will still need to work to get a top grade.

@StillSittingInACornerIHaunt sorry just seen your later post. I think MFL A level is always worth having (apart from the joy of studying it for itself and its possible practical uses). I don;t think employers look for specific A levels in general – for say an engineering place they would look for math/physics, but that sort of aspect aside I don't think it matters than much.

Your DD should ideally take what will lead to the uni course or job role she wants. If that is open, then it's a good idea to take subjects that open more doors – sciences, maths, humanities, MFL, English. She should pick the ones she likes and will do best in. If that's MFL, great. If it's maths and physics, also great. But if it is MFL please don't worry about native speakers. Despite what some posters here say, I maintain it is more than possible for a non-native to gain a high grade. I don;t care what the % of native speakers taking A level Spanish is (and honestly, I don't believe it is high enough to make a difference) - if you score 360/400 (utterly possible for a non native, honestly - the exam is intended for non native speakers) then you will get an A star. Admittedly that's 90% but then an A star is supposed to be hard to achieve.

My old school - bog standard comp - offers French, German, Spanish and Chinese to GCSE and A level French, German and Spanish.

Yes I am French but not DH, the funny thing is they speak his language better (I wouldn't say completely fluent tho)because MIL doesn't speak English but the language while it is good to know not very useful in everyday life. Funnily enough now that DS did GCSE in french, but completely stopped for a level, ask me to speak to him in french🙄.

This from this 2017 gov report suggests 'almost half' of A* grades at A Level German were awarded to native speakers.
Native speakers in A level modern foreign languages

edited to add on page 41, as the screen grab failed to show.

This is very unusual. British Council report states: Fewer than half of GCSE students in state schools across England study a modern foreign language (MFL) - except in the most affluent areas where participation is significantly higher, a new report reveal

The less affluent the intake, the fewer pupils doing languages.

Another report shows 1/3 sixth forms offered no MFL at A level

I am a bit mixed about saying children have to get a 7 to carry on. In DS’ school children were being taught by teachers with a v limited knowledge of the language. Some of these managed a 6 against the odds and would be able to make up the ground at A level with good teaching. Saying it has to be a 7 is cutting off the option for many children and there is a correlation with deprivation and lesser qualified staff etc.

Minefield out there.

Clary- no one is saying it’s impossible for non native speakers to get an A - but that is harder, which it objectively is, as evidenced by data.

Then it’s not bog standard, is it?!

Maybe it is in other respects but that is absolutely exceptional language provision.