If money wasnt an issue

[Swan2019]

Would you send your kids privately?

Struggling with the decision. We have a good local state school and are in catchment, it's enormous though. I feel that they'll survive it rather than do brilliantly there.

Have inherited enough money to send kids privately without worrying about it.

Would you do it? Is it worth it?

@WhitegreeNcandle Never ever had that with DDs. Very old fashioned and a bit odd. That’s not confidence either. It’s an expectation regarding behaviour and is not really sincere.

I think confidence is assisted by public speaking, drama and being encouraged to defend your point of view coherently whilst listening to other people. It’s about articulating what you want to say clearly and succinctly. It could include advocacy and also having the ability to discuss something in a sensible way. Having a presence and looking the part also help.

Schools can only do so much! However they can give dc the space to practice being more confident but it’s not always possible to bestow it on a dc. Very quiet shy ones will not suddenly get the lead role on drama or win the debating prize. However they can be encouraged to participate and will see what confidence looks like. There will be confident role models but good schools have these anyway. Telling a child to look you in the eye is such a minor thing!

It depends on the schools you are comparing but also on your child. My DS2 is hyper sensitive and he's doing great in private school. He would have been bullied in state. DS1 who is autistic but not sensitive and don't really care about other people's opinions about him is doing great in state (inclusive environment and he's not getting grades) and loves to laugh and socialise more than study like many others who don't have Sen so he fit in perfectly.

@EmpressoftheMundane My personal opinion is that structured environments are good for children’s development. [...] There are state schools that do achieve this, but they seem to be derided by many, such as the Michaela school.

There is a difference between i) structured and ii) batshit crazy, with petty, capricious rules.

Advocates of schools like Michaela, Mossbourne etc. love to propose a false dichotomy whereby the only alternatives to their draconian discipline would be chaos and anarchy. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Ca. 20% of London's state secondary schools are outstanding, yet only a handful follow this kind of methods.

Remember last year's thread on Mossbourne and on the psychological effect on children: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5225872-mossbourne-academies-investigations-into-alleged-emotional-harm-and-abuse-why-are-needlessly-strict-academies-unaccountable These toxic places can wreck the mental health of even well-behaved and compliant children.

The other problem, on which Michaela seems possibly even more extreme than other schools, is rote-learning. That is the exact opposite of critical thinking. It may help you ace GCSE exams, and some A levels, if you spend all your time passively memorising past exam papers, but it certainly doesn't develop critical skills.

As an example (the example was on a similar school, not on Michaela itself): https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4661381-michaela-school-experiences?reply=121030355&utm_campaign=thread&utm_medium=share

Do you know how Harris academies are always seen as very strict, often excessively so? Well, I have attended school tours where Harris headteachers, answering questions on their methods, said that they couldn't be farther from Michaela and that they would never want to teach in that kind of school. That tells you something

No. I have done this and I really think kids will do fine if the state school is good. You’d better off investing the money for them.

@Swan2019 If, even sending them private, you can help your kids financially even after 18, then the choice is not so much about private vs public, but about specific school vs specific school. These things are hugely subjective. Think of:

• size: some kids feel overwhelmed in bigger schools, others think it's easier to find your crowd there
• choice of subjects and clubs: not all schools offer all subjects. For some, being able to do further maths, Mandarin, two languages etc is important, for others it's not
• Does the school divide kids in streams or sets; if sets, in which subjects and when
• Outdoor spaces and sports provision (some kids may find the lack of outdoor spaces of certain schools utterly depressing)
• Teacher turnover
• are their policies fair and reasonable
• are they too lax on mobile phones
• commuting and logistics
• Is the private school full of super posh kids yours wouldn't relate to? Some are, but not all. Does the state school have behavioural issue? Some do, but not all.
• selection bias: the families who remain at a school tend to be those who like it. Try to speak to those who didn't choose it, or who left, to understand why

To be fair they do all of that as well. I come across a lot of young college students in my work and don't underestimate how many of them can't look an adult in the eye. It absolutely is a minor thing but it's a huge part of making a good impression and I think the foundation of good communication. I think my point is that at my children's school they look after those minor things that seem inconsequential but are the building blocks to super confidence.

selection bias: the families who remain at a school tend to be those who like it. Try to speak to those who didn't choose it, or who left, to understand why

Totally agree with this point. Years ago there was a short thread on here about the very random prep my children had attended. I stated that 12 pupils out of 30 in a single year group had all left within a few months of each other and gave some vague reasons as to why. Another poster joined the thread and stoutly denied that this had happened and said how happy their child was there. It was bizarre because what I’d stated was fact. Anyway it transpired that their child was in the nursery, so they couldn’t possibly know what had happened significantly further up the school. I’m glad their child was happy and hope that continued as they moved up the school. It’s an example though of different families having very different experiences of the same setting.

@CatkinToadflax it's also an example of how sensitive and unreliable some people are. Some people will consider you their mortal enemy if you dare question their narrative that their kid's school is a factory of future Nobel prize winners, that Crapford-on-Shite is an amazing place to live (never been happier, never looked back etc) and that the 90-minute commute is actually fine...

I must be in the minority because I admit that, had I had more money, I'd live elsewhere :)

Yes, absolutely do it. I work in a secondary school.

Love ‘Crapford-on-Shite’! 😄 Actually I think I used to live there.

@ParentOfOne Very very few schools are full of super posh dc! What does that even mean? Most schools have the majority of parents with enough money to buy that education. Are they all land owners with stately homes? Obviously not. Even at Eton. Many will be earning good money in (eg) London but are not “posh”. They might be business owners who have done well or dc of families who are business owners and are just rich. Quite frankly, so what? Most will be decent people and the only issue will be lack of your confidence to get on with them. Yes, a few will be hunting with their own tribe but many are not. We have fairly ordinary backgrounds and very few people excluded us on the basis of not shooting pheasants.

Schools never say what staff their turnover is. You would need to monitor it. Some brilliant schools might not offer FM, but might still suit DC, eg Art and drama might be ace. Policies - it’s not what they have, it’s how they implement them and do they do that fairly? Again, difficult to judge.

Leaving: schools won’t tell you how many. DD2 left for 6th form elsewhere. Mainly due to poor teaching in art and new oppressive head and deputy. We knew of around 10 thinking similar. Afterwards it turned 33 had left after y11 and 33 remained. The school had changed so much from y7 it felt like a different school. However how is a new parent going to speak to all those parents? New dc were recruited from China. This would have been noticeable but only if you visited the 6th form on a working day.

A big measure of a school is high quality teaching. That’s another aspect that’s very difficult to judge. I’d say maybe see if teachers are around on open days and have a chat. Quality is so difficult to judge though but it makes a huge difference.

I wouldn’t even hesitate and I’m surprised anybody would!

I teach in a large secondary school which is part of a multi academy trust. It is ‘good’ (last OFSTED before the reforms that aren’t reforms.)

It’s death by PowerPoint. Kids are supposed to get a twenty minute break and a forty five minute lunch but they blow the whistle increasingly early - last week break was 12 minutes and lunch 32. The quality of food is 🤢 There isn’t much really poor behaviour but there is a lot of silliness; pushing and shoving, shouting out, interruptions.

Bright kids do well anywhere is a frequent claim and it isn’t quite true. More accurate is bright kids pass anywhere. Last year I got ten grade 6s. They would all have got 7s and 8s in a smaller class with less disruption.

Bright dc definitely need good teaching too. It’s not true they do well anywhere. That’s why choosing a school matters and money gives you choice and an appropriate school found.

I agree with the point made earlier about rote learning vs critical thinking. Schools that allow debate and opinions during lessons develop critical thinking in dc. I was delighted my dc had long days at independent school too with prep built in and long lunch breaks for clubs to take place. Fabulous food and a can do atmosphere. Some state schools are more like trying to educate a battery hen. I’m going to have to give lots of £ to grandchildren for education!

I’d do it in your position as it won’t materially affect them later on ie; you can still afford uni support, house deposits etc. You can re-assess for 6th form. Just check though that it’s good value.

We send both our DC to top 5 private schools (according to the academic league table, which of course isn’t everything).
Our eldest has had some great teachers, but there has also been a turnover of staff in one department that was not ideal. We had to support with an external tutor as it was a subject that DC always struggled with due to poor teaching at primary.
I do often wonder if the hundreds of thousands we have spent would have been better invested in other ways for their future. But life isn’t a binary choice. One teacher that sparks a lifelong interest, a lifelong friend, a chance acquaintance…these things can happen anywhere and at anytime.
The bottom line is, even after the fact, you probably won’t know if you made the ‘right’ decision.

If it was a private school that’s even slightly better than any state school DC had access to, I’d send them there in a heartbeat.

@PvssHow else would you have spent (or will spend) the money? For their educational years or beyond? Our DDs have both done courses post degree funded by us although DD1 got a massive scholarship that paid her £18,000 course fees for her second training course. Both have had help with living costs while studying post grad from us. They both have substantial home deposits funded by us. They are 30 and 33 - one earns very well, the other not so much but it’s a career change, so early days. Not sure what else we could do or be expected to do and DDs have not asked for anything. However when careers are very much London based, it’s difficult to get off the ground when everything costs so much. What do you think your dc will need?

I’m certain that school didn’t really inform their careers that much. DD1 a bit but everyone needs the inner fire to get what they want, and that goes for state dc and privately educated dc. What I would say is that both speak well - unlike me! DD1 is forging a career which requires this and to be well groomed and able to network effectively. DD2 can do similar but of course it’s in addition to what they know.

DH is fiercely anti private schools so I can't see him ever agreeing to it except in extreme circumstances. So practically no.
If it were solely up to me ... Maybe. I went to state and private and got a much better education at the state school. I agree with PP that what money gives you is the ability to choose the best school for your DC and that would be more important to me than state/private.
I would also want a cushion in case things went wrong. I know too many teenagers who had crises and needed their parents there full time. I wouldn't want to be tied to a difficult or stressful job because I needed to pay school fees and then have someone in the family get sick or something. 'Money no object' would need to really mean that. What I like about state education is it gives DH and I the flexibility to change careers, work shorter hours, take unpaid time off work etc if our kids (or we) need it.

@CheerfulMuddler State Education doesn’t give you any of those work related things. That’s your job conditions that give you that. Not working is a luxury most cannot afford m, or working shorter hours, because most people need money to live. If you had your own company, would you just wind it down? Let your employees go? State education has little to do with your work or career. If people have inherited to pay fees, they aren’t working for the fees!

@OhDear111
state education doesn't allow you to stop working, of course, but it does give you the flexibility of not having to spend up to £30k per year per child.
I have been out of job in the past. The additional stress of having to pay for school fees would not have been nice.

It also gives you the flexibility of a career change or a different job which maybe pays a bit less but ticks other, more important boxes

@ParentOfOne The op isn’t funding from work income. It’s additional money. Lots of people don’t pay fully from income. However I’d never considered DH not working when we chose private. Cross that bridge if it happened! All went to plan as it did for other parents - none of whom changed their careers, went part time or gave up. As far as I know, no loss of jobs either.

@OhDear111 I know the OP won't be paying from income.
I was agreeing with @CheerfulMuddler 's more general point about how not having to pay private school fee typically gives you more flexibility.

All went to plan as it did for other parents - none of whom changed their careers, went part time or gave up. As far as I know, no loss of jobs either.

So what? The fact that a risk didn't materialise in your case, nor in the case of a handful of people you know, doesn't mean the risk is negligible.

Anyone who isn't in OP's lucky position of being able to pay for private schools and to help the kids financially after that, too, should certainly consider this risk. Especially those who are in one of those sectors where ageism is a thing.

@OhDear111 Dd1 and dd2 are almost 34 and 32. We decided to go private for secondary as our local comp was in special measures. At the time now exdh had a very good job and though we did without we were able to afford the fees for 2dc at private school. Unfortunately exdh had some sort of mental breakdown so by the time they went to university he was not working and they had a full maintenance grant etc and no help from us (we could probably have got some fees assistance but paid out of savings). Thankfully they have both got good careers and both are on the property ladder (with no help from us). It's not what I expected but they are okay.

Dd3 is now in y13 and a lot of dc left her private school at the end of y11 because of the VAT increases. This year though they have quite a few newbies in y12 and retention was better.

We have one in private and one in state. Child in private wasn’t thriving in state - happier and does better in small class. Money is not an issue.

State:
Great for a bright/academic child - really noticed and appreciated by teachers.
Shorter day makes extracurricular outside school easier - and allows a wider choice of activities than in a school.
Meets a wide range of other children, not only rich/bright kids.
Value-added is transparent - progress 8 data.
Teachers work very hard to become better teachers - but not always super-intellectuals.

Private:
Smaller classes.
Wide range of extracurricular- but some schools have inappropriate emphasis on sport/compulsory rugby etc.
Wider range of subjects, particularly languages.
Teachers are academic and Oxbridge types, but not always qualified teachers.
Great facilities (but million pound theatre is useless if child doesn’t act.)