St Paul’s vs Westminster

[WiseGreenBee]

Hi all,

I hope with all the independent school results out that everyone is happy with the choices available for their child. It’s been a long long slog and all the children and their parents should be commended their efforts.

We are in the enviable position that our son has had 11+ results that are really stellar and we are so proud with what he has achieved. It hasn’t been an easy process but he stuck with it even when all he wanted to do was anything else!

He has been very lucky to receive offers from all the schools he applied to and now we are essentially deciding between St Paul’s and Westminster with the first two years at the junior schools for both. Essentially he really likes both of the schools and feels he would enjoy being at either. I like the campus feel of St Paul’s and my wife likes the city feel of Westminster! Journey time is about the same for both and we can manage the fees for both schools (though I won’t deny the fees at Westminster do get particularly eye-watering!). We just wanted to get people’s opinions about these schools and what they feel about these schools. My son is not that sporty and would be happy with a purely academic environment, but it would be nice to see him out of his comfort zone in terms of sports and activities.

All opinions gratefully received! Thanks!

If you and your DS are 100% happy with both schools and the commute is perfect for both and ready to flip a coin, I'd suggest Westminster. There are loads of great schools your DS can go to, but Westminster is just that bit more special in many ways. It's a really cultured and privileged lifetime experience.

I assume you mean year 7 entry WUS vs SPJS as you have offers.

While both commutes are similar, WUS is close to Victoria and Pimlico (SPJS is quite far from the closest stations). Assuming you aren't driving or using the school bus.

I'm not convinced the St Paul's fees can stay this low for long. To absorb VAT in the way they have is easily in the millions. It has to be something short term.

St Paul's are ahead in team sport for the year you're joining except in swimming and middle distance/sprinting where some in WUS Y6 are easily top in country (this is specific to Y6 not every year).

In terms of academics you would be joining some good mathematicians with a everyone in Y6 getting PMC bonus round and a few doing the same in IMC.

WUS is a great school overall.

First congratulations to you and your son! He has done extremely well and should be very proud of his achievements.
I don t think you can go wrong with any of these school, they are both great so if commute is similar for both, I would recommend you go with your gut feeling.
Our son is at SPJ and he could not be happier. Pastoral care is really good and you can see that the teachers / staff really care for the boys. Humility, kindness, respect, integrity and resilience are the values promoted by the school. I was a bit dubious about it at first thinking that might be part of their "marketing" but those are reminded / promoted every day during assembly, sports etc. It particularly shows at sports events in the way boys are behaving and for me those are values that are important. Overall I feel it is a well rounded school which cater for boys of very different interests, some very sporty, some very musical, some very arty, some very geeky and some with no special talent that will enjoy every opportunity. Sports teams go from A to F and everyone participate in fixtures. Having so much ground/ field on site is such a great advantage in my opinion especially for a boy at that age, and they are just minutes away from Hammersmith underground.
I have no experience of Westminster but I am sure it is as well regarded.
Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions.

Thank you @Lolakath19 . Our son is currently deciding between SPJ and KCS post 11+. That said, he has two younger sisters, lots of female friends and has never in his life been in just an all-boys environment, so there is some trepidation about what that might mean in lived experience. Personally, I'm worried about overt competitiveness between boys and how that is handled by the school (son is very gentle, non aggressive). Very heartening to hear about the pastoral care and values you mention. Could you expand on that a bit please, in terms of whether the cohort is encouraged to support each other and not relentlessly compete to be the best at everything?

@LetItGo99 of course! Looks like our sons are very much alike in terms of personality, he has an older sister and has always been gentle and sensitive. He managed to find his crowd very easily and as I said he could not be happier. I find it hard to describe, but I would say the school really value and reward positive behaviours like kindness and solidarity. There is a system of good point in place that covers everything from academic achievemnt, effort in lesson, organisation to behaviour. Boys really learn to be humble in all circumstances and especially during and after sports fixtures. Support is provided for some who need it academically (avoiding in my view unecessary tutoring), boys that struggled will be invited to some clinic in different subject. I was a bit anxious prior to him joining as I was told it is ultra competitive and full of pushy parents but after 2 years and a half now I am so glad we made that choice as he has flourished so much there.

Thanks for your replies @Lolakath19 @Dancingby @LetItGo99, that has been very helpful. They are definitely both great schools and they both seem to be doing good job in creating fine people coming out. It is one of those few instances where neither choice is a bad one and we know DS will be happy at either. Hearing people’s views about what makes their school great is wonderful to hear but still not making the choice any easier!!

@Lolakath19 how is your son coping with homework / workload. One thing about WUS is they set about 90 min of homework every day. How does it work at St Paul’s? Also one other big difference is the Oxbridge attendance, but it seems St Paul’s are really trying hard expand Ivy League attendance.

I absolutely oppose private schools, so my advice will be objective!

Of those two I would choose Westminster all day long. So much more creative-produces better rounded people. And less pressured.

There is regular homework for sure. There is generally one or two subject homework per day (maths/science, french/geography etc). And it generally takes him 15/20 min by subject. Some homework might take a bit longer when they have to do a poster or some slide and also depends on how much time they want to spend on it. On university destination, I have not had a good look at yet, I find it is very early for my son. But I think it is generally around 20/25% going to Oxbridge, another 20% going to US or abroad, other are going to Russell Group universities. I am not sure how that compares to Westminster/Kings or even if it should be compared as those 2 schools take on a lot of the top girls of WHS, SPGS, G&L, Putney etc for sixth form..

WUS- In Years 7 and 8, the recommended homework allocation was 60 minutes (30 minutes for each of two subjects) over four nights, with an additional 90 minutes for three subjects on one weekend night.

In practice, my DS often completed his assignments in significantly less time, as there was a strong emphasis on efficiency rather than perfection in homework.

The assignments were generally intentional, meaningful, and tailored to individual needs, promoting higher-order thinking skills. This approach was notably more pronounced than what my daughter is currently experiencing at another academically rigorous school. It was evident that the boys were primed for the liberal teaching style at the Great School, which led my son to take his homework seriously, without feeling the need for additional homework or tutoring.

That said, St Paul's is undoubtedly an excellent institution, and eithrt choice would be great for your DS.

I would recommend focusing on comparing the senior schools rather than the two years of junior schools.

Considerations might include:

• Co-educational versus single-sex environments
• Emphasis on STEM and Humanities versus STEM focus (such as A-level subjects)
• The lifestyle and schedule of boarding schools compared to day
• Saturday school versus not
• University and the courses chosen
• etc

OP St Paul’s is currently significantly cheaper? Is that really not a concern for you?
I think Westminster spends cash on bursaries and state school partnerships. So if you are feeling generous and social and more left, go Westminster. If not, go St Paul’s. The educational outcome will be the same.
The fact that St Paul’s are trying to help their own parent group with fees, is that really not a consideration for you? I do think you need to ask this question. If you are super rich, then obviously it won’t matter to you. However, most people will absolutely notice the difference in fees in this climate. I suspect if the gap in fees continues, St Paul’s will find it easier to get the clever boys.

@Araminta1003 Thanks, for sure, the fees do play a part in the consideration, however the question we are posing for that is whether the (quite substantial) difference over 7 year is justified by the education DS would receive and that is something we are still mulling over. We certainly wouldn’t count ourselves as super wealthy and we would certainly notice it, however it is manageable.

@WiseGreenBee - we are seeing a difference between schools that prioritise the institution vs those that prioritise helping their own parent group with VAT by cutting costs. In this climate, I would listen carefully. I do not know the in an outs of Westminster but look at the accounts and how much in percentage terms is spent on bursaries/outreach. I would always go for a school that in this climate puts their own staff first and their own parent group/kids - rather than their “vision”.
Most of the top schools prioritising their parent group and staff are cutting their outreach to a minimum. Why put up with this onslaught from a Government? Fighting back is required.

Each to their own obviously, but in my opinion outreach programmes and trying to maintain bursaries benefits all children at the school, not just the bursary & outreach recipients themselves. Without wanting to derail the conversation, you could draw a parallel as to whether countries should still provide foreign aid in leaner times…

Even if Westminster compromise on bursaries and outreach, which they wouldn't...

The fees at Westminster will always be higher than other London day schools. As a boarding school, they also have a lot of boarding features for day students, like Saturday school, evening activities and housemasters, even though they don't live on campus. A lot of day students choose to go to school for breakfast and stay for dinner, prep sessions with their peers, and they're also required to attend Saturday classes.

https://www.westminster.org.uk/school-life/the-school-day/

Yes @Dancingby - good point regarding Saturday school. That is a big consideration for the OP whether they like the idea of that or not. Westminster has a particular ethos and the OP needs to understand what they are paying the extra for.
It is not about making this political, but Eton and Westminster, in particular, see their role as contributing to Education as a whole and the parents who use the schools need to understand that. The institution is more than just the kids they educate.

Westminster parents aren’t happy about VAT but don’t make a fuss about it since they can afford it. A lot of people will be able to pass on the extra costs by asking for higher salaries or squeezing a bit more out of their businesses through price rises. Westminster sees itself as part of the Establishment so, while they make sympathetic noises to parents about VAT and talk about it as unfortunate, they go along with it much like the King does with his government. They will survive.

Yes of course they will survive @Whatevers - but they are not currently competitive on price with St Paul’s boys. This VAT has raised some competition issues for schools, because those doing the “right” thing by prioritising outreach/bursaries may well be punished for it, indirectly, by being undercut by other schools who are cost cutting.
It is all rather confusing because the Government themselves suggested that schools should cost cut to “absorb VAT”. And some of the top schools have decided not to do that. Cost cutting for many means cutting bursaries and outreach. There is a massive contradiction there.

I don’t know much about SP but Westminster has had to cover a huge business rates bill. It’s got to live within its means and it doesn’t have a lot of outside revenue sources. It’s not really in a position to offer discounts. As much as I dislike the outreach cult I don’t think it costs that much. Most costs are staff salaries. St Paul’s will need to remove the discount if it wants to recruit and retain the best staff.

Westminster parents "not making a fuss" is objectively untrue. I honestly wish they didn't complain as much as it's all they talk about (parents have left due to VAT changes).

Parents at Westminster do not have more money than St Paul's parents. St Paul's have undercut EVERY school including their sister girls school. Westminster isn't a government aligned school.

For the OP the only consideration is can SPS absorb close to £10m in additional VAT YoY for the next 7 years. That is unlikely. There will be a correction in that term, outreach aside.

Do these schools have the same level of endowment funds? I thought they did. It is only Eton (and I think Winchester) that have hundreds and hundreds of millions in endowed funds and growing.
Brighton College and Harrow are the ones selling their brand abroad to raise revenue. I suppose Westminster and Eton are too posh to do that.

I would still choose St Paul’s in this environment. They seem on the ball about the whole thing. The educational outcome is pretty much the same.

I think your numbers might be out. It’s probably more like £1 million. Still a lot of money. Anyway, I haven’t heard of people leaving Westminster. I take your advice that they have. Westminster didn’t think its parents were going to leave en masse so it didn’t trim its cost base to give a discount. That’s a pity. Maybe these schools could do with cutting back on so many directors and heads of this and that. Whether this helps the OP, I doubt. Just musings really.

I don’t think SP is planning on cutting on bursaries, they have communicated they plan to increase the number of bursaries by 10% next year (there is around 140 people in receipt of bursaries at the moment of which c100 have more than 75%+). A lot of the money for bursaries comes from parents / old Pauline’s. Donations last year amounted close to £2m.

So we finally came down on the side of Westminster. And at the end of the day, it came down to that highly scientific metric - gut feeling.