St Paul’s vs Westminster

[WiseGreenBee]

Hi all,

I hope with all the independent school results out that everyone is happy with the choices available for their child. It’s been a long long slog and all the children and their parents should be commended their efforts.

We are in the enviable position that our son has had 11+ results that are really stellar and we are so proud with what he has achieved. It hasn’t been an easy process but he stuck with it even when all he wanted to do was anything else!

He has been very lucky to receive offers from all the schools he applied to and now we are essentially deciding between St Paul’s and Westminster with the first two years at the junior schools for both. Essentially he really likes both of the schools and feels he would enjoy being at either. I like the campus feel of St Paul’s and my wife likes the city feel of Westminster! Journey time is about the same for both and we can manage the fees for both schools (though I won’t deny the fees at Westminster do get particularly eye-watering!). We just wanted to get people’s opinions about these schools and what they feel about these schools. My son is not that sporty and would be happy with a purely academic environment, but it would be nice to see him out of his comfort zone in terms of sports and activities.

All opinions gratefully received! Thanks!

Well done on making your decision! We are currently deciding between these schools but for 13+ entry. Before receiving offers we all felt SPS was the right choice if DC was lucky to get through, but the comment from @Dancingby above about Westminster having stronger humanities (and arts) subject teaching was something I also had a ‘gut’ feeling about which is causing us pause for thought. Does anyone have any insight about the teaching in humanities and arts at both schools? It’s clear Math and Stem are equally strong at both. But if you look at Art GCSE results (for example) at Westminster vs SPS there is a massive disparity that is very surprising.
However the fee difference will be tough, and the setting of Westminster feels amazing for 6th formers, but less so for 13-16 year olds. It’s proving a much tougher decision than I expected!

@WiseGreenBee - we are in the same position of deciding between SPS and Westminster for 13+. What swung the decision for you ? We are closer SPS and our son has a similar disposition, quite a case, not overly sporty but we would like him to get involved. I do feel more comfortable with the “campus” style of SPS. Thinking of my son wandering around the area looking for his next class at the Great School does seem somewhat of an alien thought. He seems keen on History and arts which appear stronger at Westminster (just a feeling, may not be true)

Can current parents at Westminster shed any light on the initial years in the Westminster Senior School. Do the boys adjust well to this somewhat university style of teaching in the Great School. If they participate in evening activities, how do they get home. Are most children picked up from school in Yr 9/ Yr 10 or do they travel back by tube (hitting rush hour ?)

@DecisionMakingTime It does sound like we are having similar thoughts! We also prefer the campus feel of St Paul’s compared to wandering through the streets of central London and the commute for us to St Paul’s is easier. Our DS enjoys sports but would most likely be on a lower team (if at all) so if SPS boys have more social cache by being very sporty that might be a concern.
I generally would prefer a co-ed school so being co-ed at 6th form at Westminster is definitely a plus. However will girls being introduced in younger years, but not in the classroom for the 2027 cohort be positive / negative or make no difference?
And like you, we feel humanities and arts seem better catered at Westminster (I don’t know if that’s a reflection of boys / parents priorities or the standard of teaching - or a combination of both!) Comparing the latest GCSE results from each school (unfortunately I can’t find previous years to see if it’s a genuine trend or not) seems to back up this perception? If anything, this is the thing causing us the biggest pause for thought vs fees / commute on the other side.
We would love to hear from any SPS parents whose DC have pursued arts and humanities subjects and how they found them?

@WUSSP @DecisionMakingTime The way we approached this was there are no bad choices here and both schools are fabulous and our son would do well in either environment. We were so impressed by just how professional and slick St Paul’s were and everything they have to offer and we still wonder whether we should have gone for it. The commute is slightly easier, the fees definitely lower, the lack of Saturday school is a plus to us (as parents) and it’s just a really well run outfit for academic and extracurricular activities.

However…

The 2 years that DS would spend at WUS actually helped because he really loved that school. He said he just felt comfortable there, more than St Paul’s. With the senior school, we felt cautious about the travelling in and out of buildings and busy roads, but again that was something that actually appealed to him. He loves history, politics and music and the opportunity to go to a school surrounded by Westminster Abbey and the Houses of Parliament, including having services at the Abbey really swayed him. The transitioning to co-ed side we see as a plus. He would still be in a single sex class upto 16, but would be in a progressively more co-ed environment as he progressed, so all the co-curriculars would be mixed. DS also gave sports as a reason for Westminster over St Paul’s (which to be honest, we disagreed with him about) - he liked the fact he could choose the sports to play during games rather than being forced to play a particular sport like rugby.

So at the end of the day, it just came down to feel and which school just seemed to resonate more with him.

No one is picked up unless it’s a border going home for Exeat. The boys are 13-14. They are old enough to manage the tube. We live 40 minutes door to door and my DS is home around 6pm most days. He does sport on Saturday so is usually home by 5 after a fixture. A lot get cancelled due to the weather so he’d be back early on those days. Regarding sports I think it’s pretty well known that Westminster prioritises rowing. There are two football teams. The A team is probably c team standard at Eton. The b team is probably d/e team level. There aren’t any other teams so if your DS is a novice he might not be doing it. I think there are enough boys in South west and west London to fill SP with brilliant kids but it’s definitely difficult to get to from Hampstead and NW London. Nevertheless, there is probably not a big difference between the intakes of W and SPs. The numbers doing art and drama GCSE is about 20% at W. Yes, they do well. Not many don’t get a 9. I’m not sure why. No doubt the teachers are great. I don’t know SP well but I think the big difference is that Westminster is a boarding school. That means that the house is the centre of your school life. You have physical place to store things and change and shower and socialise. The housemaster handles detentions and absences etc. He is supposed to be your contact with the school. I’m not sure if SPs isn’t more like a regular school.

STEM at Westminster is widely recognised for its excellence, but the Arts and Humanities hold equal prestige within the school. This dedication to the cultural foundation starts in the first year at Under School and continues throughout the students' academic careers.

The headmaster, a passionate historian, leads a school rich in tradition, featuring its own archive room overseen by a devoted archivist. Throughout the day, students are accompanied by the chimes of Big Ben and the views of Parliament from their classrooms. Their experience is enhanced by thrice-weekly visits to the Abbey and the practice of Latin prayers, creating a unique environment that inspires a deep appreciation for the Humanities and the Arts.

It's important to consider not only the academic successes in these fields but also the number of students who choose to pursue A-levels qnd degrres in Arts and Humanities, as this indicates their genuine interest rather than just their abilities.

Admissions at Westminster place significant emphasis on skills in Comprehension, Writing, and Verbal Reasoning, alongside Mathematics. Once you join this school, you'll understand the rationale behind this focus. The culture of debate and the emphasis on learning through dialogue are integral to the experience. For example, subjects like art history are approached with seriousness and studied in art galleries through discussion.

While all schools foster a passion for the Arts and Humanities, Westminster provides a uniquely immersive environment that nurtures a love for them from an early age.

However, it's worth noting that some prospective parents and pupils do not appreciate this culture and tradition, viewing it as less 'modern' in their values, making it not suitable for everyone.

My comment is on Westminster, rather than a comparison vs SP.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DGlABKDNLMx/?igsh=MTNjdzZ1b21xcjJtYg==

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DD_tdYTOjaN/?igsh=MTZ3OWs3aTc5bnZ0Mw==

Thank you @Userid0. I think this is going to be a much tougher choice than I anticipated! Obviously, it’s very lucky position to be in. If any St Paul’s parents could give their impressions (particularly around humanities and arts teaching) that would really help!

Thank you @WiseGreenBee for sharing your thought process and good luck to your son in September.
@Whatevers - your post really helped me understand Westminster better. In many ways, it sounds like a fundamentally different school with a strong boarding ethos, when compared to St Paul’s.
Do parents or boys feel at any point, that to really get the best of Westminster, boarding (maybe later at sixth form) might be the best way to go?

@Userid0 - thank you. This does bring it alive.

I’m not sure boarding is better. If he has a long difficult journey, then yes. However, there isn’t much to do on Sunday. It’s not luxury in those boarding houses. There isn’t a big boarding specific activity programme(that I know of). They don’t have endless acres of woods and playing fields. My DS has friends who board but most aren’t. There is no barrier there. The culture is more one of mobility around town. They have freedom to go offsite to the local lunch places like Itsu and often go to Victoria street together in the evening. Of course he still mostly eats in school because it’s free and good food. But, in general, at least in the lower school, there is no advantage to boarding that I could see if he can get back to his home and bed in reasonable time. What you have to deal with and accept if you’re a Westminster parent is that it costs a lot, it has some gaps in its built infrastructure like a decent theatre(bought but not constructed) playing fields are beautiful but it’s only two football pitches in size which limits sports(still the largest garden square in Central London). The boys will need to work hard to keep up but then they are all clever boys so that shouldn’t be beyond them. You’re not getting a pampered environment like a luxury spa. It’s a school for bright kids and most of the resources go to teaching which is not so visible. SPs is too but, on the margins, it’s a bit more isolated and a campus not in the city. It’s 20 minutes even to Hammersmith so boys probably have longer journeys home. No boarders for the most part, but, much better local sports and theatre spaces etc. That’s the reason SPs moved out of town. For space and facilities. Yes, they are quite different. I feel Westminster it a commitment for parent and child. Probably SPs is a fantastic 5 day school with all the bells and whistles. For most people, it would be a dream. So, don’t worry. Go for what suits you.

@Lolakath19 Do you have any feedback as to how you have found SPS teaching of arts & humanities subjects? Would love to hear your first hand experience!

SP mum here (don't know about SPJ well), and I agree that most boys go for STEM and Economics. Arent they great for today’s world and career opportunities? Large contingent of parents also seem to have those backgrounds, and the school has always had more of STEM culture compared to Westminster or King's. SP don’t have that ancient vibe, but the teaching is good across all subjects. And of course, they won’t hold you back if you want to study Arts! SP is a great school and a good value. Feel free to DM me if you’ve got any questions!

Thanks for the feedback @NWmumofthree . Our DS loves most subjects (at the moment!) so we are trying to make sure all avenues are open for future choices. Is your DS very sporty? Would be good to get an insight on that side of things too!

We are still undecided and yo-yo-ing between the school. Leaning towards Westminster but would appreciate some insight.

Is cricket is also played by two teams (think SPS everyone plays). @Whatevers @Userid0 - if your sons play/played cricket, could you shed some light. Do they need to take the kit in from home or can they leave it at school for the term?

Westminster seem to have a clear edge on the Oxbridge results . They also have a big intake at sixth form. Appreciate your views if the brilliant results, are also in part due to the bright intake at sixth form ? This is of course difficult to measure, but existing/former parents would have a view. Do the Kings Scholars have an edge when it comes to university applications? (Noting that they are boarders)

Finally, with the school going co-ed, does anyone know, if this means that overall numbers at Westminster will go up, noting previous comments on the space and infrastructure.

Until now, it's actually been fairly easy to distinguish between Westminster's Sixth Form intake and the students previously at the Great School: the Sixth Form intake are nearly all girls. The government does collect statistics by gender and they show that Westminster's girls outperform their boys at A Level, which doesn't tell you much beyond that you make fewer mistakes selecting students at 16+ rather than at 7+ or 11+. Anecdotally, the girls also outperform the boys in Oxbridge results, by percentage.

Hi, my DS is in his second year at SPS and loves it. Vs Westminster a couple of things to flag;

• Westminster GCSE English results much weaker than St P (41% at 9 vs 64% at St P) Maths about the same 94% vs 91%.
• I wouldn't put much store on Westminster's high number of 9's in Art remember that is mainly internal marked course work, with spot checks by external invigilator
• If you are interested in rowing St P is extraordinary the boat house is on campus (W has to schlep to Putney) and a friends son who is now in the UK team says the StP coaches were better...
• My DS is not at all sporty and has really found an amazing set of lunch time clubs the Improv Club sounds like it could be televised ! (They just got a special recommendation on the ISI inspection for clubs).
• the tutor system at St P - small groups of around 12 boys vertically through the school works really well for my son to see what will be coming and for us one point of contact who really knows what is happening with our son.

The Saturday classes and Sat pm sport at Westminster should not be under estimated the boys have a much heavier work load in senior school and that really doesn't leave much time for family life at weekends. Also my friend's sons who are there often stay till after 6pm or 7pm on weekdays so there is far less family life during the week too which may work for some.

Nice to have the view from South of the river. It states clearly on the Westminster website that 79% of Westminsters’ results at GCSE were 9s. It is the top GCSE school in the country, if only by a small margin. Regarding Saturday school, it is worth considering that an extra half a day is dedicated to sport during the week so the school week is still only 4 and 1/2 days. I would like to hope that if he wasn’t at school and was at home on Saturday he would be baking cakes and performing duets with his sister but I suspect he’d be lying on his bed playing video games for the entire day. So I’m happy he’s at school despite the complaints.

Cricket is only played in Election term while football is played in Lent and Play terms so there are fewer matches than football. Again, a lot of those football matches were still cancelled. I’m not sure how many actual matches either schools would get to play. Yes, cricket is only an A and B team but I’m sure a keen cricketer would get into the B team at least. They have cricket as an LSA which is winter nets so that would be the way to go if you wanted to ensure getting in. There’s no compulsory sports team membership. Boys just have to do something for sport. It could be fives or fencing or something else.

We are still trying to make a decision here too! After lots of weighing up the pros and cons I think we would be going for St Paul’s, but the girls coming into Westminster (and the established co-ed 6th form) is the main thing giving us pause for thought (as that is such a big positive in our opinion).

@WUSSP Yes, Westminster’s sixth form and the record number of Oxbridge offers, does seem like a compelling proposition and a good grounding for university but it is so hard to decide on a school for a 17 year old when one’s son is 10! The journey to W is longer for us as well and I do think about how convenient it might be for us to attend concerts, parents evenings etc.

@Hitoyou good to hear that your son is happy at St Paul’s. It’s just that I’m wondering if our son who isn’t particularly sporty but more academic/ history/ literature inclined, might be happier at W. Perhaps I am overthinking it and he will find his tribe at either school.
In some ways, the extensive sporting facilities benefit the less sporty boys, as they might not end up playing team sport otherwise.
We are definitely unprepared for regular 7:00 pm finishes .. that would be difficult.

@Whatevers @user149799568 thank for your inputs. Lots to consider.

@DecisionMakingTime Has your current school indicated if they think your DS would fit in better at one school over an other?
@user149799568 do you have a link to where I can find the A level results broken down by gender for an individual school as I can’t find anything online? It would be great to see the university destinations by gender too but I doubt the school would tell me (and I imagine them being quite annoyed if I asked!)

Thanks for putting this out there. It will help many parents in the coming years and sums up Westminster up perfectly.

Equally though surely Westminster is so much more than an Oxbridge factory? Because surely the Oxbridge focus by the parents (self selection) is exactly what would put plenty of people off the school in the first place? And the peer pressure if you are not one of the 40/50%? That would be enough for me to choose St Paul’s straight away. We do not all think the same way.

Not a true characterisation -- we aren't aligned to Oxbridge (due to long standing academic ties) and we are not the only family with preferences for other unis.

It's been several years since I looked at this data and I got muddled. Some data on the performance of boys and girls at Westminster is available, but it's from the ISC, not the government.

Merging three files together, shortening some labels, and adding a few entries of my own, for Westminster in 2024:

Gender All Boys Girls
Candidates_Alevel 201 128 73
Candidates_ASlevel 22 17 5
Candidates_A/AS 201 128 73
Alevel_Astar 465 281 184
Alevel_A 218 140 78
Alevel_B 64 46 18
Alevel_C 17 11 6
Alevel_D 7 6 1
Alevel_E 1 1 0
Alevel_U 0 0 0

Alevel_Entries 772 485 287
ASlevel_A 22 17 5
ASlevel_B 0 0 0
ASlevel_C 0 0 0
ASlevel_D 0 0 0
ASlevel_E 0 0 0
ASlevel_U 0 0 0
ASlevel_Entries 22 17 5

Average Alevel/Cand 3.8 3.8 3.9
Average A/AS/Cand 4.0 3.9 4.0
% Astar 60% 58% 64%
% A/Astar 88% 87% 91%

So the girls were a little more likely to take 4 A levels, but it's almost certainly not statistically significant. The girls were 6% higher at Astar and 4% higher at A/Astar. I think these differences are smaller than when I last looked.

For some reason, SPS isn't included in the data, but I know you can get their numbers from their website.