St Paul’s vs Westminster

[WiseGreenBee]

Hi all,

I hope with all the independent school results out that everyone is happy with the choices available for their child. It’s been a long long slog and all the children and their parents should be commended their efforts.

We are in the enviable position that our son has had 11+ results that are really stellar and we are so proud with what he has achieved. It hasn’t been an easy process but he stuck with it even when all he wanted to do was anything else!

He has been very lucky to receive offers from all the schools he applied to and now we are essentially deciding between St Paul’s and Westminster with the first two years at the junior schools for both. Essentially he really likes both of the schools and feels he would enjoy being at either. I like the campus feel of St Paul’s and my wife likes the city feel of Westminster! Journey time is about the same for both and we can manage the fees for both schools (though I won’t deny the fees at Westminster do get particularly eye-watering!). We just wanted to get people’s opinions about these schools and what they feel about these schools. My son is not that sporty and would be happy with a purely academic environment, but it would be nice to see him out of his comfort zone in terms of sports and activities.

All opinions gratefully received! Thanks!

I don't think SPS care a jot about entrance standards for boys and the effect on girls' schools, they want the best students and going coed ensures double the pool of candidates - hence Westminster's decision.

@gladtidingss - are you able to share anything more on timelines ? Is it just the sixth form ?

Going co-ed seems like the direction of travel on most of the boys schools, so inevitable sooner or later, and the girls intake, certainly appears to raise the bar (and results) at Westminster

Afraid I can’t share anything more in timelines because I really don’t know definitively. It was being very seriously discussed just before Covid and it has not gone off the agenda.

@Whatevers I see what you mean, but I read it more along the lines of a merger between the boys' and girls' schools which wouldn't necessarily affect the number of places? But maybe that isn't what @gladtidingss meant

My understanding was a merger wasn’t being proposed.

Thanks for clarifying that @gladtidingss . I thought you meant SPGS weren't happy with the idea because they wanted to remain single sex. But now I guess you meant because they don't want to lose girls to a co-ed SPS?

Yes

The clever girl cohort is only so big and splitting it further is going to make it tougher to balance entrance standards since many parents of bright girls will also still want single sex. I actually don’t see the point of it. I also don’t see the point of Westminster going co ed either. It seems like a vanity project. A coed sixth form seemed the perfect situation.

Surely the only way to increase revenue while keeping academic standards consistent (or improve them) would be to broaden the intake pool via taking in girls ? Overall numbers for each year group would need to increase of course

I can’t believe Westminster will still take 120 boys in 2028. I don’t know but I’d guess it will fall to maybe 80. If they eliminate the sixth form intake, the school would increase to 800 from 760.

Another problem is that SPGS and CLSG start at 11, not 13. If you can get your DD off to a selective secondary at 11, why wait to 13? I do wonder if Westminster thought this through.

Interesting to hear about the potential move to coed at SPS. At a previous open day, the current master was very emphatic that SPS would not go down this route. I find it difficult to believe she would actively try to deceive parents like that. Saying that I was recently speaking to a former SPS teacher who said her management style was very unpopular and has led to several teachers leaving.

Apparently there will be an increase in numbers at 4+ and 7+ and a similar intake to now at 11+ at WUS. However the overall numbers at the Great School are to stay the same as they don’t have the capacity to increase numbers. There will still be 120-130 joining at 13, the majority from WUS, but there will be more balance between boys and girls so will definitely be more challenging for boys to join in the future.

It’s not a majority from WUS now. I think it’s around 55 now. Anyway, I hope Dr Savage doesn’t fall on his face like the last one did with the China project. Westminster might find it struggles to produce rowers and footballers and all sorts of other kids. They shouldn’t all just be experts at reciting Pi to 300 decimal places.

This is my understanding too.

www.westminster.org.uk/co-education-and-pre-prep/

It is realistic to assume that the girls would primarily join at 11+ or below, already changing girls' prep school scene at 7+ etc. Some girls would also transfer from other through or senior schools at 13.

SP wanting to go co-ed isn't new.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?q=www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6968955/George-Osbornes-old-school-St-Pauls-set-allow-girls-time.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6968955/amp/George-Osbornes-old-school-St-Pauls-set-allow-girls-time.html

A friend who teaches there also echoed what was said here - the conversation has been re-gaining attention recently, particularly as the preferences of parents are quickly shifting towards co-ed. More boys had been choosing schools like Latymer instead, and now Westminster. It appears the school is considering adapting to the preferences of a new generation of parents, many of whom may not even consider a single-sex environment for their sons.

I don't think they could ever fully 'merge' with SPGS, so it would probably be more like a girls' school and a co-ed school with the river and lots of politics in between, if it ever happens.

Dont quite understand what benefit there is, in Westminster going co-ed unless the overall numbers at the Great School increase somewhat. Seems like quite a lot of trouble to take, just to shake up the gender mix when the sixth form is already co-ed.

Co-Ed sixth form for SPS could be quite a game changer on the other hand.

There won’t be the space in WUS. Recall it is introducing pre-prep as well. With that, the attrition rate will increase because those starting at 4 definitely will be less predictably suitable for the Great school at 13. So, they have to deal with that cohort as well. I think the majority will still come from outside WUS. Maybe they won’t be able to make it to 50/50 coed for a while as it would require compromising the girls entrance standards too much relative to the boys. It’s a pretty niche group of girls that are willing to hang about at prep school for 2 more years and want a coed school and are brilliant and have parents with the cash to pay £6-7K more for possibly less female tailored schooling.

Regarding Westminster for Girls at 13 plus, there will be some state school parents with very bright girls who won’t want to spend until Year 9. That is the point when it actually starts making sense to spend money on school fees, for many. Most of the kids we know who qualified for top grammar schools also qualified for top private schools (if they applied). So there is a cohort to tap into. They just are not multimillionaires, cannot afford independent education all the way, but can for 1 max 2 kids for a few years.

Westminster have said that overall numbers will probably increase when girls are admitted in 2028. There is a new performing arts building on Tufton St but that will probably only be ready a few years later.
St Paul’s also said they have no plans to go co-ed.
Both of these things were said by the heads at talks this academic year.

I completely agree that 13 is a great time to start serious education but there are practical problems for state educated DC because Westminster requires students to take French to GCSE and classics for at least 5th form. Most do a second foreign language or Latin and Greek to GCSE. It might not be the best school for a girl or boy to take on a load of extra work to catch up, if current standards are maintained. Other fantastic independent schools are available (especially for girls) that might get the best out of children moving sectors without the tears.

I think you will find that most of the top state schools offer French and many also offer Latin and plenty of kids do Latin plus MML or 2 MML for GCSEs. All of mine were offered that. The Greek is less usual but some do it and you can easily pick that up in Year 9. 3 years of a second MML like Spanish or German is also plenty.

It’s not that it is “offered”, it’s compulsory to study either French plus a MFL or French plus Latin and Greek and 10 GCSEs must be taken. I don’t know much/anything about state schools but all I can say is that there are very few state educated boys starting at Westminster at 13. That might have been different in the past.

@Whatevers This is not true.

At the moment French is compulsory, along with 2x eng, maths and 2x science and a “creative” (DT/CS/electronics/art/drama/music). Everything else is up for grabs. You also don’t have to do a humanity.

For GCSE no one has to do Latin/Greek/2ndMFL.

This represents one of the most flexible offers for GCSEs (especially the 2 sciences NB not the dual award).

Things may of course change in the future.

Boys do join at 13 from state schools, either from other secondaries or they join WUS or one of the feeder preps for year 7 often on a bursary or some fee remission where they will learn French/latin/greek.

Edited to say year 7

OK, it’s possible, but your options are limited if you don’t take a second MFL and won’t take Greek or Latin. I’d question if there is a point in going to Westminster if that’s how you play it.