St Paul’s vs Westminster

[WiseGreenBee]

Hi all,

I hope with all the independent school results out that everyone is happy with the choices available for their child. It’s been a long long slog and all the children and their parents should be commended their efforts.

We are in the enviable position that our son has had 11+ results that are really stellar and we are so proud with what he has achieved. It hasn’t been an easy process but he stuck with it even when all he wanted to do was anything else!

He has been very lucky to receive offers from all the schools he applied to and now we are essentially deciding between St Paul’s and Westminster with the first two years at the junior schools for both. Essentially he really likes both of the schools and feels he would enjoy being at either. I like the campus feel of St Paul’s and my wife likes the city feel of Westminster! Journey time is about the same for both and we can manage the fees for both schools (though I won’t deny the fees at Westminster do get particularly eye-watering!). We just wanted to get people’s opinions about these schools and what they feel about these schools. My son is not that sporty and would be happy with a purely academic environment, but it would be nice to see him out of his comfort zone in terms of sports and activities.

All opinions gratefully received! Thanks!

That’s amazing detective work, thank you @user149799568
I know that there’s so many more important factors than these statistics but it’s just good to read.

Since my post this morning I discovered from their policy documents that Westminster allows for 'up to 70 girls' rather than 70-80 as per my initial estimate.

I've requested Mumsnet to remove this post so I can revise a few figures accordingly.

While the main message remains the same, it's helpful to have all public information compiled as accurately as possible.

I didn't bring this up in my earlier posts because I didn't think it was meaningful, but since many have raised the issue, I’ll share my thoughts now.

Westminster boys receive a higher percentage of Oxbridge offers compared to those from SP.

As an offer holder, you might want to check with the school for more detailed information, but even with the data available to the public, it's fairly easy to analyse.

43% of Westminsters received Oxbridge offers (90/211), while 22% of SP boys did (40/175). Based on the total Westminster's sixth form students of 211, girls would be up to 70 and boys at least 140. It's worth noting that the new entrants in Westminster's sixth form are mostly female.

To put it simply, for Westminster boys to match SP's Oxbridge rate of 22%, almost every girl at Westminster would need to secure Oxbridge placements. This scenario assumes that almost no Westminster girl would attend any other universities like Imperial, LSE, or any Ivy League schools, which is far from the truth.

This is why I wouldn't encourage my daughter to switch to Westminster solely for Oxbridge, unless she has a strong preference for a co-ed environment and is focused on a STEM degree, where school and peer support can sometimes be lacking in certain girls' schools.

From what I know, the cohort I’m familiar with had about 50% of the girls and around 40% of the boys receiving Oxbridge offers, although this can vary each year.

When looking at boys and girls separately, the Oxbridge rates likely rank as follows: Westminster girls, then SPGS (40% with 44 out of 110), followed by Westminster boys, and then other schools. The girls outperforming boys anywhere is becoming less surprising and is a topic itself.

No doubt, someone will argue that a few boys might choose Harvard over an Oxbridge offer, and my figures could be off by one or two students and etc. Nevertheless, the overall picture stands the same. Oxbridge statistics exist, they shouldn't be a primary consideration when selecting a school. That said, there's also no point denying that Westminster boys have the highest Oxbridge rate among boys from any school.

Factors beyond teaching quality, such as selectivity, significantly influence Oxbridge rates. Your son is likely to do well at either school, so I believe that you can trust your instincts and go for the school you think he will spend the happiest years. If my son had gone to SP, he would have become just as fine a young man as he is at Westminster. Congratulations again.

@Dancingby - but what does Oxbridge offer mean? If the school is doing more humanities/Classics etc then there will be more Oxbridge offers. The competition for Oxbridge STEM is greater with state school applicants? So how many Maths and Computer Science Oxbridge offers is surely a better question?

Hi. My post was just meant to clarify as the fact was being misinterpreted, leading to the misconception that the high level of Westminster's Oxbridge offers is largely due to the girls which is simply untrue.

I share no opinion that certain universities or courses should be more desired, and believe that they are genuinely both great schools where boys can achieve what they put their mind into.

I value your viewpoint, but I don't believe your question is inherently a better one. Nor the previous questions regarding humanities involvement or which school had a few more students earning A*. All seem to be nitpicking between two exceptional schools.

I think a more pertinent question would center around practical aspects like logistics, financial factors, Saturday school obligations, teaching styles, and the instinctive inclinations of both the parents and the boy.

Mom with girl in Westminster here so could only talk about Westminster(but live very close to St Paul and have loads of neighbors and friends kids going to St Paul. St Paul rowing is just incredible, the top in the world for many years, even B boat is better than many others potentially including Westminster. So if your son would like to have the best rowing life during high school then go for St Paul.

Teaching at A level in Westminster is truly fantastic, so much more interesting and in depth and goes beyond A level. Life in Westminster during term is incredibly busy. Kids could arrive for breakfast, often stay in the library and even pop in for dinner before going home if they dont board. There are always so many talks held by student society, debates, drama…its felt closer to life in University. The Westminster Abbey also made it more special. Personally if I had a boy I would send to Westminster even if my boy rowed.

Did you not get a gut feel when you went round the schools? They are very different, albeit they both get outstanding results.

Why don’t you stand outside in the late afternoon when boys are leaving and see what impression you get.

Try not to get hung up on Oxbridge offers. The landscape there is changing rapidly and by the time your child reaches 6th form their interests may have changed and the admissions criteria may look very different. I have a hunch that Westminster regards all uni applications as a 3 year process and it’s quite common (even normal?) for students to have a 2nd attempt if they don’t get in 1st time to Oxbridge/Imperial/LSE/med or vet school/top US unis and this may flatter their results.

wow! Lots of well informed parents. Thank you!

@north51 -I plan to do just that, hang around when the schools close and see how I feel.
I don’t think I understand what you mean by 3 year process. What do the students do for an additional year then? Gap year ?
Are you saying that the 90/211 Oxbridge for Westminster could be comprised of offers made to a single cohort, but potentially across different years?

Definitely not a deciding factor certainly but good to understand what’s behind the statistics

Not sure what you mean by cohort, but if we take as an example students receiving offers this Jan 2025, some of them will be in the current upper 6th (or Remove as it’s known at Westminster) and some will be post A level (ie on a gap year). So W might say we got X offers in Jan 2025 and I don’t think they differentiate between pre and post A level offers.

I suggest that W students are more likely than the average student to have a 2nd go post A level rather than go to their 2nd choice. It used to be called applying 7th term and was the most common route for schools who targeted Oxbridge as you spent your whole term preparing for the exams and interviews. I don’t know whether there are statistics on offers pre and post A level so this is just my hunch.

All schools and colleges - state and private - don't state if the Oxbridge offers are current students or students who are post A levels when they publish Oxbridge stories on their websites. You have to take it all with a pinch of salt and it's no basis to choose a school for your dc when they are 11/13.

Name changed for this. Couldn’t agree with the directly previous poster more. You’re talking about two great options with very different feels. Historically the products of both were very different but both benefited from a great education. Surely the answer lies - as others have suggested- in going to see the schools, meet the boys. The answer does not ever at this level lie in statistics (!!) and I’m slightly appalled by the reverse engineering here. At 11+ you’re talking about seven years of your child’s education: where they will study, make friends, grow and learn. The idea that you’ll base that decision, even remotely, on some perceived percentage increase of their “Oxbridge” chances (or their GSCE or A level scores) is not just intellectually impoverished, it’s also foolish (it also doesn’t to the best of my knowledge take in key info such as SEN which as far as I understand in relation to these schools is highly relevant).
I really hope your son has a wonderful time at whichever school he and you choose and finds the path right for him both at university and in life. FWIW a dead set on Oxford/Cambridge approach is unlikely to lead to happiness long term whether they ultimately (in 7 yrs time!) get in or no.

@north51 I think I understand.

So the 90/211 Oxbridge offers at W could look something like say 50 (upper sixth boys) + 28 (say 40% of upper sixth girls) + 12 (gap year applicants not in the upper sixth) or some numbers along those lines. We just don’t know.

Thanks for highlighting. There is indeed a lot of context needed. I think one naively assumes that university destinations are directly proportionate to teaching brilliance but of course there are so many other factors at play.

anecdotally the Oxbridge exits made of gap year students really isn't a thing.

But logically it's not sustainable to cook the exit books over many years as the gap year pool would exhaust.

You would have a cadence of good year then bad if that really happened.

It would be great to continue to hear any experiences from current parents of either school, positive or negative. It’s really helpful for those of us who have to make a decision (and hopefully you aren’t put off by trolls who seem to have too much time on their hands to write an essay on a thread for their own amusement…)

NC. I don't want to open the can of worms but it's worth considering your views on single-sex versus co-ed (or semi-co-ed) education, as I believe that’s an important distinction. We initially chose an all-boys school for our son, but later moved him to a co-ed sixth form (state) to give him the opportunity to learn alongside girls. While he was socialising with girls and active in parties, those interactions, limited to social settings, didn’t seem ideal to us. Collaborations with local girls’ schools were infrequent and often awkward, as, according to him, it was clear the main aim was to help boys learn how to interact with girls. It’s been lovely to see him now working alongside— and often for—girls, many of whom are brighter and more capable than him, exchanging different perspectives. Many of his friends, who were more reserved around girls or not interested in parties, had minimal real life interaction with them during secondary school and turned to online instead. While some parents may prefer this, it certainly didn’t seem ideal for us, and I suspect this is why more and more boys’ schools are going co-ed.

Thanks for your comments - this is potentially one of the big positives of Westminster for us. I’d love to hear from St Paul’s parents (particularly any with boys in the sixth form or who have left) as to whether they felt there were any positives or negatives of it being a single sex school.

While I don't believe that Oxbridge result should be a factor for secondary schools, I also feel it's important to address misconceptions.

Westminster's Oxbridge results are not inflated by the inclusion of gap year applicants (or skewed by the girls, as previously noted).

When considering gap year applicants and etc, their Oxbridge rate for 2024 stands at 43% (90 out of 211). If we look at just the Remove pupils, the rate remains the same at 43% (86 out of 201).

I’m not sure why gap year students would change anything because they are just last year’s students carried forward every year. People can analyse it till next Tuesday but it remains true that Westminsters are very bright and they choose a diversity of subjects, not just subjects with super competitive entry while they do very well in those competitive subjects too.

I've sat in on sixth form classes at both schools, teaching is superb at both, you couldn't choose between them.

I am informed on good authority SPS will go co-ed sooner rather than later.

I'd go for the one with the easiest commute, SPS isn't 20 mins from Hammersmithmore like 7 mins because they have a gate that opens right next to Hammersmith Bridge so you don't walk round the long way that visitors do.

This isn't for the OP btw but for others reading. They're both great schools and your child will have a very privileged education at both

Can you say more about SPS going co-ed @gladtidingss ? I thought this was impossible given that there is a separate girls' school

I'm afraid I can't say much more because it would be too outing - let's just say I know a lot of people who work at SPS and it's definitely on the cards. Right now they're talking about more collaboration between the schools but that's largely to keep SPGS happy because they obviously don't like the idea at all. Some parents are also deeply resistant and have threatened to remove their dc if it happens. But it will sooner or later.

interesting - that's good to know! sounds like it would be a positive move for the school

I actually think that might be a pretty dumb idea since London is already flooded with independent school places for clever girls. It’s the boys that are short of places. If both Westminster and St Paul’s cut their boys intake, the situation would be even worse. This will squeeze out places like G&L and City while entry standards for boys will get even tougher.