St Paul’s vs Westminster

[WiseGreenBee]

Hi all,

I hope with all the independent school results out that everyone is happy with the choices available for their child. It’s been a long long slog and all the children and their parents should be commended their efforts.

We are in the enviable position that our son has had 11+ results that are really stellar and we are so proud with what he has achieved. It hasn’t been an easy process but he stuck with it even when all he wanted to do was anything else!

He has been very lucky to receive offers from all the schools he applied to and now we are essentially deciding between St Paul’s and Westminster with the first two years at the junior schools for both. Essentially he really likes both of the schools and feels he would enjoy being at either. I like the campus feel of St Paul’s and my wife likes the city feel of Westminster! Journey time is about the same for both and we can manage the fees for both schools (though I won’t deny the fees at Westminster do get particularly eye-watering!). We just wanted to get people’s opinions about these schools and what they feel about these schools. My son is not that sporty and would be happy with a purely academic environment, but it would be nice to see him out of his comfort zone in terms of sports and activities.

All opinions gratefully received! Thanks!

If you look at the results, more than 100 out of 120 do a MFL

Is triple science compulsory at St Paul’s boys then? I think it is quite helpful for people to read these kind of things. I know from a friend that Eton also does 2 Sciences and loads of flexibility - some boys probably doing Latin Greek and 2 MML there then. Does Westminster do the Ad Maths GCSE for quite a lot of higher Maths sets? I think a lot of parents choosing these schools do not understand all of this when choosing in Year 6.

There is no further maths. It's OCR GCSE Maths.

What a bizarre (& untrue) comment. W doesn’t make it compulsory exactly so that the boys have lots of choice.

As far as I can see (from website) SPS also offers similar options with 2 sciences, English and Maths compulsory. More choice in modern languages at W , i.e. Mandarin etc.
Latin, Greek etc. or second modern language don’t seem to be compulsory at either school for GCSE but an option at both.

@Araminta1003 - did you mean there is a difference in subject flexibility for GCSE or A Levels?

Boys' schools going co-ed is mostly about adapting to the changing needs of future generations, not necessarily about trying to attract current parents. Right now, these schools are doing just fine. While some may not see the point now, more and more people do, and schools predict that most will in the near futute. They’re focused on long-term planning, not short-term results. For example, by 2030, when Westminster becomes fully co-ed, parents choosing schools for young children will mostly be from Generation Z. This generation is expected to have different values and a stronger preference for co-ed education. (And for them, what does gender really mean anyway?) In addition, private schools will likely cater even more to an international elite, for whom single-sex education is often an alien concept.

“There is no further maths. It's OCR GCSE Maths.” @Whatevers - did you mean OCR GCSE Additional Maths?

I was just wanting to know out of interest if they do any of these advanced Maths “GCSEs:” for the top sets:
“AQA GCSE Further Maths. This is only available in the UK.

Edexcel iGCSE Further Maths. This is offered in the UK and internationally and is harder than AQA Further Maths.

OCR GCSE Additional Maths. This is only available in the UK. This is harder than both AQA Additional Maths and Edexcel Further Maths.

Cambridge iGCSE Additional Maths* (spec 0606).* This is offered in the UK and internationally. This is the hardest course of all.

DS is actually going to a grammar anyway and they do OCR GCSE Additional Maths for top set. Then next 2 sets do AQA GCSE Further Maths. Most kids will do Maths A level, at least. Lower set will be taught the syllabus for GCSE Further Maths but not take the exam.

I was just wondering what the most academic private school does. DC have a cousin at another academic private school doing the Cambridge iGCSE Ad Maths in top sets so I just thought maybe Westminster does it too. There is probably nothing much between the last 2 hard ones anyway.

These are more of interest for those who love Maths and will likely do Further Maths A level (stepping stone for that).
It is a lot of detail, like on the languages/Classics.

Personally, I am a fan of co-ed Sixth Forms, it is difficult to get a whole 50% into a previous boys school even at Sixth Forms though, no matter how good the school/how many places. I do think there are arguments for 11/13-16 single sex education, or at least form groups.
So for me, co-ed at primary/prep, then single sex, then fully mixed Sixth Form would be the ideal. Parents want logistics that work too, so often prefer the option (at least in theory) of sending siblings to the same school.

The more urgent question for me in all of this (as regards schools going fully co-ed) is sibling priority and how and whether it will be given (in some form). Will that compromise the academic rigour of Westminster Under? And will as many feed into the Great School as right now?

There is no additional or further maths GCSE at Westminster or St Paul’s. They both teach way beyond the limits of the syllabus in most subjects and that is very much part of their ethos. A very large proportion of students take maths / further maths A Level and excel so I don’t think there is any problem with the school’s decision.
In Year 10 at Westminster the students choose 11 or 12 subjects that they may want to do for GCSE. They then drop one or two of those in year 11 and don’t do the exam. I think this is to have a well rounded education that is not entirely focused on GCSE exams. Obviously this is more work for the students so that might not be right for every child. I don’t think St Paul’s does this (or anything similar).

None of these schools gives sibling priority and I can’t see that changing whatever their intake

No sibling preference at either Westminster or the Under School.

The 4+ children will have to apply and take the 7+ entrance examination alongside external candidates to ensure the same academic level, as they are guaranteed a place only for the first three years. The prep-prep stage appears to operate independently in this aspect, with the major quality assurance taking place at the 7+ level, which makes sense.

From 7+, the process of transitioning to Westminster remains unchanged.

I had looked into this for my niece's potential admission to the Under School. The admissions policy detailed on their website is clear, and I discovered that there are no plans to implement a more sibling-friendly policy or to compromise on academic standards.

I do ponder the role of the pre-prep in this context, but it perhaps has some importance within the girls' prep schools scene.

@WUSSP From open days, St Paul’s also does the same i.e. 12 subjects and narrowing it to 10 GCSEs . In previous years, students did more than 10 GCSEs at St Paul’s but now reduced to 10.

The main subject choices at A levels at both the schools seem to be Maths and Science. Westminster have a broader language and art offering at A levels and more students for these subjects. Fewer doing English and languages at A Levels at St Paul’s, with a slightly stronger Maths focus, although those who are studying English have also done extremely well at A levels.

In summary, seems to me, that they are both really great schools with great teachers, so if sports isn’t a key factor, perhaps the decision points are logistics, money, co-ed/single gender sixth form and Saturday school!

Both Westminster and St Paul’s do a broad range of subjects in year 9. However St Paul’s (like most other schools) narrows down to the GCSE choices in year 10, whereas at Westminster the students choose one or two more subjects to study in year 10 that they won’t actually take the GCSE exams in and drop at the start of year 11. That is quite unusual!

I see. Understand now. Thanks. Not entirely sure how I feel about this!
I suppose a broad education is good but then probably increases the quantum of homework on top of an already long day!

Hi OP. Did you use any tutor for your son? Can you please pm me if this is the case? Will be going through the process in 2 years and wanted to get ready. Thanks

We were in a similar situation as the OP: firm offers from both St Paul’s and Westminster (albeit our son is a bit younger, 8+), but, unlike the OP, ended up choosing St Paul’s over Westminster.

And since I found this thread very useful as we were doing our research, I thought I’d leave our thinking process here for future parents in the same situation.

We went through many rounds of debates and hesitations, spoke to multiple people, did quite a bit of research (including a scan of career trajectories of alumni on LinkedIn), but ultimately it was down to three factors:

1. We consider ourselves upper middle class but definitely not rich, so SPS was a better fit for our long-term family circumstances: we have two sons and after modeling our budget until graduation, even a theoretical option of paying £100k in school fees for two of them at the Westminster Great School was not looking realistic. The difference in one child’s education from Y4 to graduation (not taking into account the inflation) is £82,344.
2. We really enjoyed every interaction with SPJS Head, Mr Snowball, and other teachers: we feel it is important for the boys to have good role models around them, and have an impression that Mr Snowball could be one. He comes across as an intelligent, committed, generous and fair Head of School.
3. We generally felt that SPJS was a more well-rounded, forward-looking and adaptive school, and that everything was just a bit more intentional and better structured there: from facilities to the experiences that the boys had at the Open Day and tests, and the clubs that suit modern kids’ expectations. This is very subjective, but I felt like the boys will be just a bit more prepared for real life after SPS.

Having said that, WUS has many amazing advantages: as far as I understand, it will become a proper co-ed school by 2030, it is wonderfully located in central London, its connection to Westminster Abbey and exposure to the Parliament are truly unique, and of course, it has a long history of academic excellence and quite a few notable alumni.

Quick note on the prep for those curious:

DS was / still is in a normal state primary school, but is naturally good academically. Not considered genius, but has been exceeding expectations all along. He likes doing homework and is usually ahead of the class.

We hired a tutor about 4-5 months before the tests - once a week for 1h. Our tutor wasn’t an expert in tests at SPS or Westminster - just a good Y6 teacher from a local school.

We didn’t do any special training or rehearsals for the interviews, but DS is naturally confident, articulate, inquisitive and collaborative, and I’m not sure you can train for this.

And maybe at 11+ and 13+ you need a bit more, but at 8+ that was enough.