HBS v DAO twin dilemma

[twindilemma82]

I am really struggling with secondary school choices for my twins.

Twin 1 is super academic, very quiet, lacks confidence but very driven. She hasn't had a good time in primary and really struggled to make friends. She was successful in the grammar school exams. She is desperate to go to HBS and I think it would suit her as she'd do well in a small academic environment without boys and where the girls are studious and unpretentious.

However currently we've listed DAO as first on both twins' CAF because of the sibling policy and because of the wide ranging extra curricular activities. Twin 1 is so desperate to go to HBS, she talks of nothing else. She's become miserable about her future and generally anxious. She's written me long word documents on the subject of HBS. She doesn't understand why she worked so hard for the exam if she doesn't get to go to the school she wants. She did work extremely hard.

Her sister is less academic (she chose not to sit the eleven plus). She is very sociable and extremely kind. She is still academic and will do well if pushed. Her self esteem has been knocked by her sister's progress. She never does better than her sister in tests and is always comparing herself (even though I try to avoid this). She wants to go to DAO because of the extra curricular activities and its music offer. She does see the benefits of not being with her sister (and so going to a different school) but prefers to go to the better school.

If I switch the application preferences, twin 1 is likely to get into HBS. It's possible that twin 2 will get into another school that we like but it's also possible that she won't. The other school that we like is fine with great facilities but it doesn't compare to DAO in terms of results or extra curricular offer. If she doesn't get that school, then we are very much stuck!

It feels like there's no right answer and no matter what we do, we are letting one twin down. Any advice ?

@twindilemma82 - Twin1 is sounding increasingly like one of mine with ASD and if that is a possibility, because we obviously do not have a lot of facts, then I think I would do HBS for them but no idea what you would then do with Twin 2. I guess you will have to wait and ring around and see which other schools may have places after initial allocation.

Reading back through OP’s posts, I wonder if you were banking on being able to accept DAO for both kids, then later swap twin 1 to HBS but retain the DAO place for twin 2. Looking at their website, that definitely isn’t possible.

So you’ve got a choice between a good school for both, or letting twin1 have her preference (which is based on factors she could well be wrong about) and twin 2 could end up somewhere awful.

If you had asked this question in October then the answer may well have been HBS for twin 1 and then you’d have had more scope for twin 2, but since you didn’t do that then, I really don’t think you can back out of it now as the consequences for twin2 of ending up at the local sink school would be worse than for twin1 going to DAO which is an excellent school albeit not her first choice as a 10 yo.

OP you really need to apologise for (a) making the choice you did back in October and then (b) letting twin1 think in the interim that there was a chance of swapping. She should have been told it was decision made and that’s that, instead of having this potential change hanging over you all for months when it really isn’t realistic.

My LA allows us to join as many waiting lists after 4 March as we like even for schools lower down on the list or that we did not apply for, so OP can try that for Twin 2, put Twin 1 on the HBS waiting list and see what happens and what is offered. If her LA allows that.

Are you absolutely certain you won't get DAO on what I presume is distance criteria? There was a fall in birth rates after 2012, so offer distances are increasing.

What was last years Last distance, and what are you?

Really difficult situation... Sounds like she wants HBS for social reasons mostly, and it's not the best school for socialising really... but she wouldn't understand these nuances.

Also sounds like she might have SEN - "struggled to make friends", "miserable", "desperate", "generally anxious", "overwhelmed", "doesn't understand", very rigid ideas etc. If she doesn't have a diagnosis yet, she might need one in a couple of years. I'm a neuroscientist and I'd look into this if I were you.

I'd ring DAO tomorrow and ask them what they can do for SEN, can they place them in small groups etc, then factor this info into your decision. And research twin 2 option 3 ASAP - it's not the end of the world if teaching is not great, you could supplement some subjects with tutors, it's not ideal and would require twin 2 to sacrifice her after school time and she will resent it, but I'd be more worried if there are safety concerns or really chaotic and disruptive environment at school option 3. If this is the case, I wouldn't risk it as it would mean screwing twin 2 for life.

I think the problem with ASD in girls as what DAO offers for SEN won't necessarily address twin 1s feeling that the environment at DAO suits her less than HBS as a single sex, small school with more like minded peers. She's highly academic so SEN offerings like small groups probably aren't what she needs so much as a smaller (and possibly regimented) environment and better chance of finding 'her tribe'.

Forcing her to go to DAO as not letting twin 2 go there could have long term academic consequences doesn't mean it won't have long term consequences for her if she ends up very unhappy there.

You are really between a rock and a hard place. It sounds like the school / council have been very honest re the likelihood of twin 1 getting into HBS if you change preferences now - maybe you can try and get a similar feel for twin 2s choices 2 and 3?

If I understand how the system works correctly if you withdraw DAO as choice 1 for Twin 1 before national offer day, Twin 2 won't be disadvantaged for her second choice. She simply won't get DAO as there's no longer a sibling preference there. So she'd be as likely to get her second choice as she would if you'd initially put it number 1. Maybe others can say if that's right

@househelp12345 I will look into that. I understood that you don't withdraw the application for a school, you just switch preferences. The original application would still be treated as in time and offer made on offer day. I wonder whether if I refuse DAO on offer day, then twin 2's offer would be rescinded and the rank 2 choice would be treated as in time. It all seems a bit risky and relying on the system to work in a joined up way!

Thanks everyone for mentioning SEN--I hadn't thought about it but will investigate.

@Glitterbaby17 yes over the next few days I definitely plan to push the council and school more for answers

@twindilemma82 do check with your admissions authority. For my authority, I think you'd need to change Twin 1's choices before offer day. Otherwise Twin 2 will end up down the list on her second choice as on offer day the school would have allocated their PAN already to other applicants.

It is a good point @househelp12345 - because changing Twin 1’s preferences before national offer day is not changing Twin 2’s original preferences so they cannot really treat Twin 2 as “late” applicant. Their original preferences should hopefully stand they just will not qualify as a sibling anymore at DAO. It is just quite late in the day and the OP really needs to investigate properly so no mistakes are made.

It is likely to be too late to change preferences before 1 March. The allocation system is extremely complicated and there is a cut off date. In my LA it was three weeks ago. It will be on the LA website - probably under 'School admission (2025 coordinated secondary admissions' which includes all the dates.

If you switched Twin 1's preferences around now, putting HBS ahead of DAO, would she then be considered a late applicant at both HBS and DAO? Would that mean that she would be allocated her 3rd choice, at best, on 3rd March? And you'd put her onto the waiting lists for both HBS and DAO at that point?

If so, those assurances about the HBS place had better be rock solid!

i think the fact that T1 wants to be separated is the most important aspect here. She doesn’t want to go to a school with her twin, she’s worked really hard to make sure that happens.

Is the school T2 may get really all
that bad, or just very different from DAO and HBS? Maybe it will be fine, maybe it will be better than fine. Plenty of North London kids don’t go to DAO or HBS and no one suggests they’ve been let down.

would you start a new thread asking for feedback on the other schools?

@SmallestSheepdogforTeenySheep all the schools round us have tiny catchments and we don't fall into any of them apart from one which has a larger catchment, is rated outstanding but is known to be quite 'rough' and to have lots of kids with behaviour issues. Good idea to start a thread on this --thank you. I know that the twins are in a low birth year, so it's possible that the catchments will have increased,

The choice made (where Twin 2 effortlessly gets into DAO using Twin1's hard work and the sibling link) essentially teaches two young kids that it is better to take the easy route than to work hard. That is not a lesson I want to pass on to my children. I always show them that hard work leads to success.
There are elements of luck and other factors beyond our control, but hard work should be rewarded - not the other way around.

I guess twin 2 is the more socially charming one and OP may have an unconscious bias.

It's the other way around in life though - nurses do much harder work than bankers but they are not rewarded more.

@twindilemma82 Sorry if I've missed the answer to this but how do you know that Twin1 has definitely got a placed at HBS? Is it based on her mark in the exam?

Only you can really know how seriously not letting Twin1 go to HBS will affect her and only you know how Twin2 will feel if she ends up not at DAO.

It it were for my daughters, I would big up the DAO to them both and feel happy that they are on track (offer day pending) to get into what appears to be a really excellent school. For me, I think that giving them an equal shot at a good education would be my priority.

BUT if you do change it and Twin1 goes to HBS and Twin2 ends up somewhere different them I'm pretty sure that the 'somewhere different' will work out really well and its up to you to make sure she feels that way. You said Twin2 is sociable, kind and compares herself negatively to her sister. Maybe being in a more comprehensive environment would help her thrive? As a pp said, fairly sure the other schools in that area do well too...

live within 3 miles & passing round 1 will guarantee a place for HBS

Although I don’t like the idea of unfairness between twins, I personally prefer DAO over HBS. My daughter passed HBS Round 1, but we chose not to apply due to concerns about a lack of diversity.
If OP can help Twin 1 see DAO vs. HBS from a broader perspective—rather than focusing solely on the fairness aspect, which might cloud her judgment—and also teach Twin 2 to appreciate and show gratitude to her sister (since her sister’s effort is a huge favour to her), you might be able to achieve a win-win situation.

I've been trying that strategy for months but it hasn't worked. Will keep trying though

Can you bribe her ( joking of course )

If OP can help Twin 1 see DAO vs. HBS from a broader perspective—rather than focusing solely on the fairness aspect, which might cloud her judgment...

But for Twin 1, it's not (only) about which is the better school. It's about her entirely legitimate wish not to go to the same school as her twin, which is being overridden for the sake of getting her sister into DAO. That's where the unfairness comes in, and that's not going to be addressed by telling her DAO is just as good as HB.

From twin 2's perspective there is a wider unfairness. Why was I born less intelligent (this is what she thinks no matter what we say). Why do I find school harder? etc etc So it's not as straightforward as people make out. That unfairness will be reinforced by her sister going to HBS and her going to the local comprehensive.
But this might be more of a reason to put them in separate schools so she's not constantly comparing herself.

How does T2 know she’s less intelligent? Surely she’s just different to T1, as all people are slightly different. She will never know if she would have got a place as she didn’t work towards the 11+. I don’t blame her, I wouldn’t have either.

I can’t work out which outstanding but rough comprehensive your daughter would be sure to get into. But surely plenty of children will go there, as would have T1 if she had chosen not to sit the exams.

I dislike the sibling link at secondary school, I don’t see it’s needed. But I completely see why you’d use it. But in this case you’ve got two different children who have different personalities and I think it would be easier for you if there was no sibling link.