HBS v DAO twin dilemma

[twindilemma82]

I am really struggling with secondary school choices for my twins.

Twin 1 is super academic, very quiet, lacks confidence but very driven. She hasn't had a good time in primary and really struggled to make friends. She was successful in the grammar school exams. She is desperate to go to HBS and I think it would suit her as she'd do well in a small academic environment without boys and where the girls are studious and unpretentious.

However currently we've listed DAO as first on both twins' CAF because of the sibling policy and because of the wide ranging extra curricular activities. Twin 1 is so desperate to go to HBS, she talks of nothing else. She's become miserable about her future and generally anxious. She's written me long word documents on the subject of HBS. She doesn't understand why she worked so hard for the exam if she doesn't get to go to the school she wants. She did work extremely hard.

Her sister is less academic (she chose not to sit the eleven plus). She is very sociable and extremely kind. She is still academic and will do well if pushed. Her self esteem has been knocked by her sister's progress. She never does better than her sister in tests and is always comparing herself (even though I try to avoid this). She wants to go to DAO because of the extra curricular activities and its music offer. She does see the benefits of not being with her sister (and so going to a different school) but prefers to go to the better school.

If I switch the application preferences, twin 1 is likely to get into HBS. It's possible that twin 2 will get into another school that we like but it's also possible that she won't. The other school that we like is fine with great facilities but it doesn't compare to DAO in terms of results or extra curricular offer. If she doesn't get that school, then we are very much stuck!

It feels like there's no right answer and no matter what we do, we are letting one twin down. Any advice ?

I haven't a clue what DAO is and am hazarding a guess at HBS but I get the gist of your post.

Forty years ago I took the 11plus and was offered a place at a super selective grammar school. My parents knew that my younger sister wouldn't get a place and therefore sent me to a private school with a sibling policy so that my sister would get in

It was a great decision for my sister but, even now, I feel like my education was sacrificed for my sister.

I would try to rectify this if you can

Twin B risked her options. Twin B chose not to take the exam and is thus, the one responsible for any limitation in options. I really don't understand equivalating the two scenarios.

Twin A worked hard and took the test allowing her to go to HBS. Not allowing her to go to the school of her choice harms her in a way that wouldn't have happened had she not had a twin who didn't bother to take the test.

Twin B chose not to take the test. Either she isn't fussed about going to DAO or she just figured that she could ride in on her sister's coattails. Either way, she is responsible for any lack of options - her sister living her own life merely removes any extra bonus that twin B was hoping to take advantage of (it hasn't taken away anything that twin B has earned).

@twindilemma82 what do your abbreviations mean??? hbs?? dao?? caf????

Henrietta Barnet School
Dame Alice Owens School
Common Application Form

It seems ridiculous that you can get a sibling place without taking the 11+. So if you have a 10/11 year old that passes tge 11+ then subsequent siblings get into the school without having to do so?

As a train, I find it shocking that you are considering using twin A to get a place for tein B.

Imagine they were friends... Then twin A cab go to the school that she worked so hard for and really wants... HBS. Twin B will get the school that she didn't work hard for and not using her sister's hard work to get in ie whatevet school this us. I can only see the sacrifice of twin A if both go to DAO. But there is no sacrifice for twin B if they go to different schools... She is going to the one that she worked for. If you send them both to DAO there will be a lot and a lot of resentment. Everything in their life will be blamed on this decision and you/her sister.

Twin B cannot blame twin A fit not getting in to DAO as she would not have gotten in on her own merits.

I was the equivalent of twin 1, although I relating to my younger sibling. My parents deliberately chose a school for me because they thought that my sister wouldn't get into the selective school (no sibling policy).

Although there wasn't immediate fallout, the relationship between my sister and I was damaged long term. Obviously a lot more history here, but I was never allowed to fulfill my potential, was taught that my views and feelings were not as important as my sister's and I have no relationship with my sister now, who despises me.

It depends on the school, but yes some partially-selectives (including Dame Alice Owens) are like that. Partially-selective schools are sort of in-betweens of comprehensives and grammars, so they fill some places based on specific aptitudes (academic, music, etc) and some based on the same sorts of criteria comprehensives use (looked after children, residence proximity, sibling at the school). For DAO siblings of current students (or twins/triplets of current year applicants who gain a place by another criteria like with OP's DD2) are actually prioritized before any applicants hoping for places based on academic ability.

HBS is a grammar, so all admissions is based on how applicants score on their admission exams.

Thanks so much all--hugely helpful thread. In terms of twin 2 using twin 1 to get into a good school, I hadn't really thought of it like that. I'm not sure that a 9 year old freely chooses not to do the eleven plus. She did choose that but I didn't encourage her to do it either as I knew she probably wouldn't pass. I therefore put a lot of resources (my time and tuition) into twin 1. So you could say in a way that twin 1 benefitted from the family resource and therefore she could perhaps choose her second preference (which is still amazing), to benefit the family.

However, I'm not sold by that argument, she worked incredibly hard and I hugely worry about the damage to her and the twin relationship should she not get the school that suits her -and as others have said, worry that if DAO wasn't perfect, she'd blame her twin. I also want her to have a good secondary school experience and be able to reap the rewards of her hard work in going where she wants.

I am though really worried that twin 2 won't get any good option ..although the risk of that is relatively small, it is a risk! Hence why the situation is very stressful.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. Allowing twin A to work so hard to get into her dream school and then telling her she can't go and instead has to go to a school she doesn't want to attend because she has to help her sister get into her first choice school (after the sister chose not to even sit the 11+) is far more likely to cause serious, long-lasting harm to DD1 and the family relationships that outweighs any objective comparisons about school quality

I think objective decision making is the forest, thinking this will certainly cause long-lasting harm is more like the tree.

I have 4 sets of friends with twins who have all had similar issues. Once you put a twin into a selective system, either 1 or both of them, you have to make these kinds of choices.
In the examples I know of, twin 1 would have gotten a score high enough for a superselective and twin 2 not and a less selective grammar etc. In every case, the parent has had to decide whether to play it safe and keep them together or separate them.
Twins travelling together to school etc is always a concern for parents especially if it is their eldest children they are sending off.
I am really not convinced that HBS is going to be a better fit for a highly academic shy child than DAO. I have seen children with that profile sink in a superselective school where they will not easily be at the top - usually it is the confident resilient ones that cope best in that environment who are also really bright. It seems you and Twin 1 have convinced yourselves that HBS is the better fit, but you do not actually know yet whether she even has a score high enough on 4 March to get in on the waiting list? Or did they actually tell you this? Normally, they would not at this point in the admissions process. So a lot of your fretting may be normal secondary school sending them off niggles and worries.

Twin 2 should have sat the tests and earned her own place.

@Araminta1003 I don't want to go into too much detail but we do know that she will get into both DAO and HBS (well, whichever we rank first).

So you could say in a way that twin 1 benefitted from the family resource and therefore she could perhaps choose her second preference (which is still amazing), to benefit the family

I'm agog at this.

It seems really important to you that twin 2 gets what she wants rather than twin 1 gets what she earned,

@RoastLambs no-you're dismissing the fact that DAO is a great school where both girls are likely to be happy; it's not as if I'm considering sending twin 1 to a rubbish school to benefit twin 2. You're putting a huge amount of weight on the preference of a ten year old.

When did this preference for HBS arise/how strong is it? Is there any chance it is linked to the fact that her twin wouldn’t be going there?

Where will twin 2 go if not DAO?

I think I’d be leaning towards sending them both to DAO in this situation, because it’s an excellent school so a good choice for both, even if it’s not twin 1’s first choice right now.

If they were siblings and twin 2 was a year younger... Would you insist on twin 1 going to dao? And if twin 2 was the older sibling... What would you have done? The answers to these questions will help you decide if you are prioritising the needs of one over the other. For clarity the answers should stay the same whichever order it is, then it would be an independent decision

Gosh, that is a real dilemma isn't it? Is there any scope at all to arrange for dd1 to go and visit the school again? If 60 students get in on academic ability, presumably they do a grammar stream?

OP why can the schools tell you that Twin 1 will definitely get a place and not tell you if Twin 2 will still get a sibling place at DAO?
And if Twin 2 does not qualify for a sibling place at DA) anymore, then what was her second choice on the CAF and will she still get that now as a late applicant? I am really confused. Because if Twin 2 would still be in the same position she would otherwise have been in and her second choice is a good school too, then this is less of an issue and more of a question of whether you want to separate them or not.

Also these two schools are not right next two each other so commute becomes a question too and where you currently live (does it happen to be right in the middle). It really is a whole family decision as to what is best for all, in the circumstances.

Twin A has her heart set on HBS and has worked for the place, she should have the opportunity to study there.
Twin B has her heart set on DAO but won’t be offered a place on her own merit so needs to accept that she’ll go to a different school if twin A chooses the school that suits her best.

I think you’ll be doing Twin A a real disservice if you don’t allow her to go to the school she really wants too. Twin B will be upset but in time will hopefully understand that they are individuals who have to make their own best choices.

A friend of mines oldest child passed the DAO exam so her subsequent children were able to attend without taking the exam. One had special needs and it really wasn’t the best place but that child was sent there to keep a place open for the younger siblings- it was really unfair for the SEN child who then didn’t have a peer group, his happiness at school was sacrificed for his siblings education which was really unfair.

To answer some of the questions:

We live closer to HBS but there isn't a huge difference.

We have been to DAO three times (including recently) but twin 1 is still certain that HBS is the right choice. She has felt this way since she passed round 1( but has increased the pressure in the last few months). She told me that she never dreamed that I wouldn't let her go to HBS.

I do think some of her reasoning is about not being with her twin (she feels socially in her shadow and wants to find her own path), but she has lots of other reasons too.

I can't get a guarantee that twin 2 will get into her second choice as it's also oversubscribed and she'd be a late applicant, which would disadvantage her. I'm trying to get more information as to her chances.

This would also teach an important lesson that family is more important than individual achievement.

Though in a highly individualistic and atomised society it's not valuable of course.

I think if you put DAO first in October you keep it that way. You cannot now put HBS first and make Twin 2 a late applicant for second and 3rd choice schools. All you could do is leave it until September and game the system, let Twin 1 & 2 start at DAO and then try and get into HBS. Or wait to see if DAO will let Twin 2 stay a sibling if you go on the HBS list “late” later on. Because if you change it now for the sake of Twin 1 you are also damaging Twin 2’s natural position if they had been an on time applicant.
If you moved recently to London and none of above applies then obviously ignore.

The sibling link is there for PRACTICAL reasons - so that a family doesn't end up with 3 kids with 3 different half terms, or having to pay through the nose for breakfast and after school clubs because two parents (one of whom probably works for longer than school hours) can't be in 3 locations dropping off small kids at the same time. If twin 1 gets to HBS so twin two doesn't have a sibling link to DAO, that's FINE, because they will be 11 and will presumably be independently travelling to school anyway. Do the choices ENTIRELY separately for each child.