How many GCSEs do kids take these days?

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DS will choose his options next week, and we have only just been sent information home on this. DD chose her’s 4 years ago (same school) and did 11 GCSEs, but DS has been told pupils only do 8 now. This is obviously fewer than he was expecting to be able to choose, and he is worried about how this will affect his future prospects. Am I right in thinking that 8 GCSEs for a top set pupil is a rather low number?

High achieving private school - 10 is the norm. 11 with further maths 12 if very strong in an additional language.

I don't think the school would recommend DT and Engineering - at ours it's either/or with those predicted higher Maths grades encouraged to do Engineering. It's a great course and the kids love it!

DD is in Year 9 and is going to choose her GCSE. They are doing English, English Language, Mathematics, Combined/Triple Sciences, History or
Geography, one MFL and two options. This means either 9 or 10 subjects depending on their science choice. This is a state comprehensive.

Those were my A levels! History the insurance in case physics went wrong. I wanted to be a scientist but was stronger at humanities. Damn.

@Zonder DC school also has combined and triple science timetabled together. Have you looked at the exam results of either? At DC school Biology has 35% with 9, 25% at 8 and 20% at 7. Physics is 35%, 20%, 20% at 9, 8 and 7. This compared to combined science at 4%, 10% and 10% at 9, 8 and 7. I wouldn't put DC in combined science if they were to continue with STEM with this kind of results in combine science.

No I haven't as it's not really relevant to us. However I would say that part of the reason for the difference in grades will be the pupils syphoned off into each pathway. Students with a greater aptitude for science will generally be in the triple cohort and those with less of an interest or attitude will be in the combined cohort. I was just interested in what the pp who is a physics teacher was saying.

But is that due to teaching, or due to strong science pupils being firmly encouraged/pushed to do triple?

Stronger pupils encouraged to do triple, or in lots of schools, only a couple of classes of triple available and its invitation only….for the able.

So those doing single sciences are more able. But they also get to learn with a more focused cohort, in all likelihood.

It’s generally accepted that doing 3 x single sciences is not a good idea for those who aren’t top performers. It is especially the case when the 3 are timetabled in the same slots for combined science, which delivers 2 GCsEs. The single science brigade have to get through more info in the same amount of time.

People always say Combined is fine to move onto A Level sciences. It will be, but those who did SU gle sciences will have covered more.

Some schools don’t offer single sciences. Some selective schools don’t offer combined. Most offer single sciences to a minority of students and most do combined dual award.

@Zonder and @TeenToTwenties I would guess the difference can be due to both the cohort and the teaching. The more able kids are all in the triple sciences and the disruptive ones in combined. Maybe more senior teachers pick the plum job of teaching the triple science sets too. But being in the same set as the more capable kids is enough to persude DC to pick triple science.

9 to 11 is normal at my DCs school.

DD did 11 because she did separare sciences plus an extra maths one, forgotten what it was called. I wouldn't recommend 11, it was a bit pointless and stressful and she had 27 exams!

8 doesn't seem like very many though and surely must restrict their choices?

I think reducing it would restrict choice as well. DD struggled to pick her options as she had a lot of subjects she wanted to do, so reducing it further would not have been good. She also feels it is pointless and a waste of time doing subjects she won't be doing a GCSE in e.g. PSHE and PE, I don't agree with her but do understand that the GCSE target can motivate some people.

I think there should be more flexibility though, especially if people are doing 10 and struggling with a subject they should be allowed to drop it.

@pljlse I'm not an engineer myself but I am one of the very few people in my immediate family who isn't so do have a bit of exposure to this kind of thing. Both my sons are currently at University studying engineering degrees, not straight Mech Eng but courses with a strong mechanical element. At GCSE my elder son did 3 sciences, computer science and engineering. It's worked out for him but I was worried that he was putting all his eggs in one basket and that he would be in trouble if he changed his mind. But he was adamant that he wouldn't, and he hasn't so that's been fine, and he enjoyed the courses and did well. He did Maths, Physics and Computer Science A levels. My younger son was far less sure what he wanted to do and did a broad range of GCSEs which didn't include engineering, computer science or DT. He also enjoyed his GCSE courses and did well. He did Maths, Physics and PE for A level. They're now both doing their first choice of courses and are very happy.
I think it's easy to get too hung up on GCSE courses. I'd go for what they enjoy and are likely to do well in rather than worrying too much about the impact of specific GCSE courses on future careers, as in reality it probably doesn't matter that much. I'm pretty sure my DS1 would say that his engineering GCSE was fun but that having it hasn't been either an advantage or disadvantage so far, and not having it certainly hasn't impeded DS2. They've both got friends on their courses from quite a wide range of backgrounds with different GCSEs and A levels. Maths and Physics A levels are almost universal amongst all the engineers I know but other than that they are quite a mixed bunch.

@MrsAvocet thank you, that's really interesting. I think my biggest concern with triple science and only getting 1 option is him not doing computer science. He has a PC and loves all that stuff, and I think it would be good to keep his options open for engineering and computing careers (although I know it's possible to get into the latter without traditional qualifications), he would probably want to do maths, physics and computer science at A Level because he can't do engineering at A Level (and hope maths and physics would cover that anyway) but then assume he wouldn't be able to do computer science at A level if he hasn't done it at GCSE. He's adamant he wants to do engineering at GCSE though.

I do worry about him going down to combined science though to get an extra option as I was always told the most capable should do triple, it has extra classes, and in his school I hope the behaviour would be better in the triple stream compared to how it has been currently.

How did they fit so many subjects into the timetable? How did they have the time to cover the syllabus?

He can certainly do CS A level without the GCSE, especially if he is keen on coding and dies it outside school. That’s my understanding anyway, so check with school what their position is

@clary thank you, I will speak with the school.

Yes, you can definitely do CS A level at my DC's school if you haven't done it at at GCSE.

I agree reducing to 8 is a real shame, it really restricts what they're learning and they are making decisions at 13 that could potentially close doors to A levels that they might fancy aged 16.

Mine had to choose 4 options on top of compulsory maths, English, science, RE and Welsh. Fairly easy for DD although she would have sneaked in music as a 5th option if she could've. DS was approaching it from the opposite perspective of which subjects are so awful that I absolutely must drop them, and could only come up with 3 that he liked 😂

But they both got a very broad education all the way to age 16 which was absolutely not needed for progression to 6th form but great nonetheless.

@hughs, I'm not sure which A-level doors are being closed off by 8 GCSES - often fewer than you think.

DD2 has just picked her sixth form options - I think Art was closed to her (she hates art though!) but that was about it. Languages she would have had to take a test before taking the A-Level. Music would have needed theory and practical certificates.

And there are so many you can do without the GCSE, including most humanities, music, drama, etc. Plus you don't need triple science for the A-Level. As it is, she's picked two new subjects - economics, psychology, that she's never touched at GCSE and nor have most people.

I suppose what I'm saying is an education can be broad without everything having to be a GCSE course. DD2 does 8 because she needs the practice time for music. I was really sceptical about how it would work having had her sister do many more, but I'm surprised at how unrestricting it feels.

I remember hearing some schools do only 9 - think it was Wimbledon High, but could be wrong. For such selective schools that only do 9, why would that be? Children should be quite capable to manage more.

@*hughs, I'm not sure which A-level doors are being closed off by 8 GCSES - often fewer than you think.

DD2 has just picked her sixth form options - I think Art was closed to her (she hates art though!) but that was about it. Languages she would have had to take a test before taking the A-Level. Music would have needed theory and practical certificates.*

I guess it depends what's compulsory and how many options they have. At my DC's school there 9 were compulsory, so that obviously would reduce choice somewhat. There you couldn't do history or geography A level without GCSE. You couldn't do maths (or physics I think) without additional maths. A language test is fine, but if you can't do the GCSE at school, how will you have gained the necessary skills? Would A level only be available to those who speak the language at home or can afford out of school tuition.. Same with music, GCSE is the pathway to A level for kids who may not be in formal music education and taking grade exams.

I don't think it's controversial or really even debatable to say that making kids choose 8 GCSEs is more restrictive than letting them choose 9, 10, 11 or more, and that many don't know at 13 what they want to focus on.

DD was a classic one of those who enjoyed a lot of subjects. She was lucky to be allowed to do maths, English, Welsh, history, RE, triple science, drama, French, add maths and economics. (And Welsh Bacc.) She enjoyed most of her courses and went on to do four A levels because she still had a wide range of interests, and is now on a major/minor interdisciplinary type degree course with a compulsory language and year abroad. I'm sure 8 suits some, those who pick a lane early and know what they want to do, but for kids like DD, 8 GCSEs is a terrible shame I think.

I think the point about doing more than 8/9 GCSEs is the difficulties it creates for most in terms of the number of exams and the ability to achieve their best grades when doing so many.

It is a problem of the current exam system….that the content level is high in lots of subjects since 2015 and there are more exams. A student can be faced with close to 30 exams….and it’s just too many. Agree that it’s a shame to narrow options young and that at 13 they often don’t know what they want to do. But whilst the exam system is as it is, it certainly lends itself to doing rather less….and there is no problem for moving on.

In most places, you can do History or Geography A Level without GCSE. It would be very unusual to suddenly want to do Music if you hadn’t done GCSE or carried on with an instrument and theory tests. 8 really won’t close doors for the vast majority.

This keeping all the subjects going and the benefits of that have to be weighed against the struggles of covering the curriculum and sitting so many exams in a short space of time, and likely ending up with a lower average point average from doing 10/11, than from doing 8/9.

It’s why lots of independent schools are now encouraging either one fewer subject, or starting with 9/10 and dropping one somewhere through the GCSE. Many schools also offer some kind of programme where it is possible to do non -examined lessons in languages or art or a practical skill or something else, to give more breadth. There is recognition that it doesn’t all need examining. Having 8/9 GCSEs at the very best grades a student can achieve when doing a slightly smaller curriculum stands then in better stead for uni places and work etc than having done more subjects and got lower grades across the board.

But they don't NEED more. That's the point of all this, I think.

Restricting to 9 means they get very little choice over the mandated ones.

English Lit
English Lan
Maths
Language
Biology
Chemistry
Physics
RE
History/Geog (pick one)

So where is Art, Sport Sciences, Engineering, Music, ICT/Business? No room for anything creative with 9.

@Zonder there might be children or families who might WANT more though and that's why most selective schools do 10 or more