Could any child get into SW London Grammars with tutoring?

[GeorgeSpeaks]

My child recently got a place at a grammar school in SW London. I'm very proud of her and she worked hard to pass the exams when none of her friends were sitting them

The thing that pisses me off is that when I tell people which school she has been allocated (I only mention when asked) they always ask if she's been tutored. One even went as far as saying she hadn't put her kid in for the exam but they would have passed if she had.

Do any kids get places without tutoring? Our primary is a state and achieves below average results compared to others in the local authority. The tutoring was an hour a week plus a few past papers in the run up to the exam.

Am I wrong to feel pissed off at this attitude? I'm probably being over sensitive!

If tutoring didn't help people wouldn't pay for it.

Some children certainly get in without tutoring (I know some who did), but it helps a child know what to expect and how to tackle tests.

Nobody can credibly state that their child "would have passed" if they had sat the test. There is no way of knowing that. Whereas your child sat it and got through - well done them!

Hi OP, that sounds really irritating. No one can say their child would have got in if they had sat the exam (but didn’t!). However, I am one of those posters who turns up on SW London boards saying my DD got into Tiffin and Putney without tutoring. She’s now Y11 so it’s a few years ago and maybe things have changed. My DD went to state primary in Richmond and I knew it was a high achieving cohort and all indications in reports and at parents evenings were that she was at the top end so I didn’t feel tutoring was needed. We didn’t take either of the places and instead she went to Grey Court because she became clearer over y6 that her strong preference was for a co-ed with fantastic sports provision. It has worked out brilliantly for her but obviously different schools suit different children.

There are children who do get in without tutoring. Just like there are children who pass their GCSE’s without revising and some who do the same at A Levels and Degree level. In everything there are children with natural aptitude and they just sail by. If you ever work in schools you will see a few of those in every year group.
However, that doesn’t take away from the fact your DD worked her butt off and did something great and should feel very proud of herself.

All kids need to work hard to get into those schools, either with their school work, extra work sheets, read more books etc. No one gets in by doing nothing….otherwise my chill out surf buddies will be phD level at an Ivy League university.
Well done for your DC!

Thanks, yes there are a few who don't do anything and sail in.

I think it irks me because the implication when people ask about tutoring is that her score was artificially high as a result of it. Which I think is untrue, obviously!

@GeorgeSpeaks every child who sits for grammar or private schools has been tutored. However, what counts as tutoring varies from person to person. I know people who use formal tutoring, those who had intensive tutoring from a family member and those who were given exam prep and informal non intensive tutoring by parents, all gained selective places. Every one of those children performed perfectly fine and could keep up. There are numerous myths and low key jealousy surrounding school allocations, and it is very difficult for people to say well done and really mean it.

Congratulations on finding the right school for your child, enjoy your dcs next stage of schooling and ignore the haters.

As @OnlyTheBravest says some children may have intensive tutoring at home with parents (who may be well educated themselves) but are then able to say that they are not tutored as they have not paid for a tutor. Some will be able to afford extensive 121 tutoring others may be able to scrape enough for a few group classes. Some are tutored only in year 5 for the test others are tutored from a very early age.

I suspect quite a few children who are tutored don't pass. My DC will be taking the 11+ in September and has had a group online lesson every week since October. Others are doing the same or 121 or combining this with work at home. I do know of children who have passed without paid tuition over the past few years but only a few.

There was a bbc documentary a few years ago where they followed four primary children. The only one who passed was untutored. Another child had a mother who was stressed, didn't have a full education herself working a low income job but ploughing hundreds into tuition each month for her child. The poor child was under a lot of pressure because of the investment her mother was making. Results day was awful as she and her mother were so disappointed, there was no comforting hug or reassurance. She was living in a small crowded space with a baby who kept her awake at night.

I remember that documentary. It was based in Kent which is a full grammar area. My heart broke for the girl 😕

@GeorgeSpeaks understand your annoyance but I would not let it get to you. The reality is the vast majority need some kind of 'tutoring' to get in - as pp said that could be as simple as being taught some exam skills. But there is a difference between paid tutoring for years and some support from your parents in the months before the examinations. Anyway who cares really once your child gets a place. Your child is lucky to have the opportunity of a grammar school.

Quite frankly the grammar schools annoy me with their narrative that children don't need tutoring to get a place. As from what I have seen 99% of the children who get places have been tutored.

I think just say 'yes' - you did employ a tutor and presumably you felt it was helpful. You don't have to justify or explain anything to randoms.

I got ds some tutoring at a couple of key points, particularly going into a university entrance exam of a kind he'd never seen before. Yes I'm lucky to be able to do that. Don't regret it and happy to say I did it. He still did all the work!

Well, the chances are that her score was higher as the result of the tutoring. Presumably that's why you paid for it?

That doesn't mean that she isn't "deserving" of a place as the vast majority of other kids who did the test will have been tutored too.

Too bad for the kids whose parents can't afford to tutor. The odds are stacked against those kids from the start.

I don't blame any parent for doing what it takes to support their child within the flawed system that we have got, but I do despair of the system itself.

No. Some kids who do havr tutoring still don't get high enough scores ime!

Some kids that get a place might not be tutored, I doubt the numbers are high. Loads and loads of kids that are tutored don't get in, competition for these school places is massive, congratulations to you daughter in gaining a place. Deep breath when you get the "my child could have got in if they took the test" comments 😉

Well.if course it's higher by tutoring or why on earth would you do it.? Sounds a lot of extra work to me, but she's got the reward of going to grammar school.

People employ tutors to boost their child's academic performance, whether that be to bring them up to an average standard, get them through the 11+, increase their GCSE grades, etc. So you can say "Yes, we used a tutor for that very reason and it worked". There's nothing wrong with supporting your child's education if you can afford it.

I’m in a grammar area and many children are tutored and don’t get in.
But equally some children who aren’t tutored would have got in if they had been, and some of these move from non grammar to grammar for sixth form.
Natural ability plays a large part but as many have said, preparation helps.
I prepared both my 2 and one friend’s son in a relaxed way over a year and all got in. Could claim they weren’t tutored but of course they were!

As others have rightly said, pretty much all children have some form of exam preparation- most have paid for tutoring (even if they claim they haven't) and some have worked with their kids to go through past papers.

Few children pass who have literally rocked up on the day. Exam technique needs to be taught to 10 Yr olds - and those who pass have the routine down usually, so they are able to finish the papers in the given time.

Those parents who have worked at home with their (bright) kids are usually incredibly smug when they say they weren't tutored. They were though, in a different way.

11+ brings out the most awful competitive nature of some parents.

I suspect your friends are irked because (whether consciously or not) you are sending out the message that "my child is better than yours because my child got into the grammar school and yours didn't". Which is why one parent has said that their child might well have got in if they sat the exam.

Look at the second sentence in your OP
I'm very proud of her and she worked hard to pass the exams when none of her friends were sitting them

Would you have been less proud if some of her friends had sat the exams? Would she have worked less hard?

DD is at a Sutton grammar and everyone was tutored and loads who were didn’t get in

My DD2, although not for sw london but I think a fairly selective grammar, got in with minimal compared to others tuition. This me me feel like a bit of a fraud given how much more time and money others put in not forgetting the extra effort the dc put in. I'm not saying she would have got into one of the sw london schools.

@redskylight I meant something different there but expressed it badly. What I meant was that she was the only one in her class doing this extra work on top of school work, unlike now in SATS week where they're all sitting them together. Some kids would say they didn't want do the grammar exams because Jenny and Sarah at school aren't doing them so why should I? She was quite mature about it from that perspective.

Me and my siblings all got into one of the top performing grammar schools in the country without any tutoring and came from a very working class background. I was absolutely baffled when I saw tutoring was a thing on MN. As children we WANTED to do well academically on our own merit and were never pushed by our parents with our studies. There were some children who failed the 11+ and going to a comprehensive suited them much better as it doesn't get much easier once a child starts at a grammar school if they don't have the academic ability.

I think it depends on the school, some are super selective and the exams are very difficult. I would say the vast majority have some form of tuition, whether that is at home or externally. All children, despite any natural ability would benefit from exam technique and being aware of the exam structure beforehand. However I do know of a couple children who managed to secure a place without any prior tuition so it is possible.