Could any child get into SW London Grammars with tutoring?

[GeorgeSpeaks]

My child recently got a place at a grammar school in SW London. I'm very proud of her and she worked hard to pass the exams when none of her friends were sitting them

The thing that pisses me off is that when I tell people which school she has been allocated (I only mention when asked) they always ask if she's been tutored. One even went as far as saying she hadn't put her kid in for the exam but they would have passed if she had.

Do any kids get places without tutoring? Our primary is a state and achieves below average results compared to others in the local authority. The tutoring was an hour a week plus a few past papers in the run up to the exam.

Am I wrong to feel pissed off at this attitude? I'm probably being over sensitive!

hi, just arrived back in uk after a long time away , now my 13 years old son need a school place this coming September, I know it’s very last minute and ideally we are looking at Hertfordshire area. Any good private or state schools can you recommend please. We have no idea it so hard getting in a good school, and did not prepared him for the tough entrance exams. He is bright but had a slightly different learning system in another country. Love sport especially football and swimming. Any advice will be much appreciate. TIA

You may want to start your own thread - it will get more attention.

For state schools you’ll likely need to phone the relevant council and ask where there are vacancies. You may not be able to action what you find out until September as many schools are shut through the summer. Independents again you need to call directly to find out vacancies.

Thank you, appreciate your reply, just realised that . Sorry I am new to Mumsnet.

I think in a lot of cases, what they're getting is reasonably high ability and hard working/compliant. If you've got a lot of hard working/compliant students, it makes it a nice school to work in for staff, and it looks good to parents. You also know these students are more likely to put the work in if they take subjects that involve any coursework etc. And most students can't breeze through GCSEs and A-levels with no additional revision.

Very able students who want to do things in their own way can be quite difficult to teach, and can be disruptive- which impacts the learning and results of others. In a way, it suits a grammar school to select them out. (Also, some of these children don't cope well with no longer being a "big fish in a small pond" when they end up in a class with other students who are equally clever. I think Grammars don't suit students who have a constant need to be top of the class for whatever reason.)

Anyway, to answer OP's actual original question, I don't believe any child could get into a grammar school with tutoring, let alone a super selective one.

In state secondary schools, I've met Y7s who struggle to read and do basic maths. I've met Y11s who can't access a GCSE foundation paper for my subject. I've also met students who panic under exam conditions, no matter what prep or support they are given. I've met students who needed heavy parental support, or additional tutoring to scrape 4s in English and maths. I've met hard working, lovely students who struggle to finish exam papers but don't appear to have diagnosable SEN.

I don't know that much about 11+ exams (beyond sitting them myself), but from what I can remember, I would think at least 25% of Y7 in an average state school would struggle to access the exams, even if given tutoring- this isn't including those with significant diagnosed learning needs. I think the next 25% would probably struggle to achieve the pass mark even with intensive tutoring and all the support in the world.

I would think that for the most selective London grammars, you'd probably need to be in the top 50-25% of the cohort to stand a chance- and probably the top 25% if that tutoring wasn't very intensive.

Equally, I think students who might be in the top 5-10% on raw intelligence may struggle to get into the most competitive schools if they haven't been prepared by someone. I'm sure there are students who get through with no or minimal tutoring every year, but they must be a tiny minority.

My experience is also that a lot of students at grammar and private schools do get tutoring at various points throughout their school career.

Locally to me, which is pretty far away from London, there are a small number of grammars in the next LA- they might be considered super selective, I think. We pick up students in our sixth form who've gone to the grammar schools every year. Some of them are amazingly bright, some of them are B/C students if they're not being pushed- but no lower than that. And we have students who are D/E students, and equally those who don't get into our sixth form or don't get accepted onto A-levels. Equally, I've got A* students who've gone all the way through a comprehensive system.

I do think, to some extent, grammars are also selecting for supportive families and active, involved parents.

"grammars are also selecting for supportive families and active, involved parents."

The implicit selection on heavily involved parents in highly selective London grammar and private schools are the main contributing factors for the public exam results. I would think with the same cluster of parents and children, if put in any schools, state or private, resource or not, will always end up with the dazzling outcome anyway.

Quite frankly the grammar schools annoy me with their narrative that children don't need tutoring to get a place. As from what I have seen 99% of the children who get places have been tutored.

It’s a competitive system with children chasing a set number of places, so once a critical mass of children are tutored, most children will need to be tutored to compete.

If no children were tutored, none of the appropriate ability would need to be to get a place.

No one was tutored when every pupil sat the 11+.

If the question is whether any child of standard intelligence/performance can be prepped to get into a London superselective, then I'd be tempted to say yes. (eg. When I started working with my son in the October of Y5, he couldn't even remember how to add fractions or identify a verb. I thought he was deluded to even want to try for a grammar but hey, he is now due to start at his top choice in September.) But if the question is whether any tutored child gets a place at a London superselective, then the answer is obviously no. In my area in London, I know a lot of boys who were supported by professional tutors (often 1-1 and more than a year) who didn't didn't pass the tests or didn't get a place. They are kids with strong parental support and working at greater depth at school. I assume there are several factors at play: quality of tutoring, motivation, ability to handle pressure, etc. Well done to your daughter.