Page 3 | Could any child get into SW London Grammars with tutoring?

GeorgeSpeaks · 2023-05-11T18:14:07+00:00

My child recently got a place at a grammar school in SW London. I'm very proud of her and she worked hard to pass the exams when none of her friends were sitting them The thing that pisses me off is that when I tell people which school she has been allocated (I only mention when asked) they always ask if she's been tutored. One even went as far as saying she hadn't put her kid in for the exam but they would have passed if she had. Do any kids get places without tutoring? Our primary is a state and achieves below average results compared to others in the local authority. The tutoring was an hour a week plus a few past papers in the run up to the exam. Am I wrong to feel pissed off at this attitude? I'm probably being over sensitive!

WhiteBloatus · 12/05/2023 22:56

the standard has become so competitive that I would say only tiny proportion could get in without tutoring, everyone we know who got in had been tutored heavily. And as PP have said, many more who are tutored don’t get in.
Why are you bothered OP, you did tutor your daughter, it worked, happy days.

Pearfacebananapoop · 12/05/2023 23:08

I've found the whole secondary school attitudes of various parents baffling to be honest. It brings out monsters in people for very different reasons. One of my friends kids passed the test (not 11+ but similar) and another parent went up to him and said "how on Earth did your child pass that" WTAF?!

Re the 11+ my view is it's old fashioned and generally out of sync with modern curriculum. That is why people need tutoring to pass it as it has things they will never have seen before. It's not necessarily about who is most academic it's about who can pass that test. You only have to read the boards on here to see the challenges this test poses and probably gives plenty of backing to those who want grammars abolished!

Anyway your DD did great and got the school you wanted, be proud and ignore stupid comments like that.

SamPoodle123 · 13/05/2023 08:55

ScrollingLeaves · 12/05/2023 20:29

I think state schools teaching of the National Curriculum will be to a standard about 2 years below the potential ability of the most able. The exam is pitched to that more advanced standard. So even clever children at state schools would most likely need home help or tutoring to pass.

Yes, exactly this or a parent that knows what they still need to cover, who then lets the dc know. My dd is in state school and end of year 5 we decided to do the 11+ and so we had her assessed by the tutor, who said she had some math she still needed to cover, as she had not learned it in school. Dc will not be able to understand the math without being told the formula or steps at least. It is the same for my ds. He is end of year 4 and I decided to get him to do some atom learning to make sure he covers the curriculum. And he already pretty much finished the curriculum on atom learning, but he did say a few things have not been covered yet and my dd looked at it and confirmed they start to teach that in year 5 or 6!

EweCee · 13/05/2023 09:04

Just experienced the 11+ hell for the past year - not all children who are tutored pass at all, particularly this year when there were more children sitting than ever before for the same number of places (SW London).

Riverlee · 13/05/2023 09:04

I know parents who said their child didn’t have tutoring. However, what they meant was that they didn’t have paid tutoring. However, it turns out they did a lot of work at home, and the parents did work with them.

I think very few people would pass without tutoring, or at least being made familiar with what’s involved in the tests.

Riverlee · 13/05/2023 09:10

@WombatChocolate
“Switched-on parents counts for a huge amount. Switched-onnparents who understand the system and timescales and who plan ahead make a big difference. Those that buy the books and resources and research on-line and work with their kids, are often far more motivated than paid tutors will be. If you look at the ElevenPlusForum you’ll find lots of parents devoting hours to prepping who never pay a tutor. A switched on parent is also more likely to be able to find a well-regarded tutor and book them before they are booked-up. This isn’t comparable to using a group tutoring centre.”

So true.

igglo · 13/05/2023 11:21

WombatChocolate · 12/05/2023 21:53

Of course lots of children won’t get in to superselectives, even with tutoring. Some of these schools have more than 10 applications per place.

I know children in Kent and Bucks which have some selective but not super selective schools, who were heavily tutored and who didn’t get in - so bit in the top 25-30%. In these areas, some will make it without any preparation, because a higher percentage pass and raw ability will get some in.

Switched-on parents counts for a huge amount. Switched-onnparents who understand the system and timescales and who plan ahead make a big difference. Those that buy the books and resources and research on-line and work with their kids, are often far more motivated than paid tutors will be. If you look at the ElevenPlusForum you’ll find lots of parents devoting hours to prepping who never pay a tutor. A switched on parent is also more likely to be able to find a well-regarded tutor and book them before they are booked-up. This isn’t comparable to using a group tutoring centre.

When other parents who didn’t opt into taking the exam tell you that their kid would have passed, just smile and nod and say ‘I expect you’re right’. It doesn’t matter does it….your child has got the grammar place and their child didn’t sit the exam and isn’t going. It’s like everything….people don’t like the thought that their child might not be getting something others have. Where effort is required, they don’t like the thought that either their parental effort or child’s effort has stopped them getting something.

Selective schools and children having placed to them always creates some kind of tension between parents. No-one likes the thought their kid is going to a lesser school. That’s not to say the alternatives are lesser, but people often have a perception that is the case. Everyone ends up defending their choices, whether it was to apply for selective education or not. It’s honestly not worth engaging with as it often causes bad feeling.

My advice, if your child is going to a selective school which is either state or independent, is to say nothing about it. If asked, say as little as possible. Commenting on the fact your DC worked really hard doesn’t help (other people perceive this is a comment saying their DC didn’t work hard) or saying you e chosen the school because it suits DC best doesn’t help (as people take that as a comment meaning an inferior school is for their inferior child) Say as little as possible. Always be positive about the other children and the schools they are going to. Never run down or be negative about any other schools.

And yes, most kids who get selective places have worked hard. But remmeber too, that lots work hard and don’t get places…so it isn’t simply a case of ‘deserving’ them due to hard work. Children who get the places are generally fortunate. They probably have worked hard, but they have also usually had. Itivated and switched-on parents who put them in for the exams and supported them, and naturally had the ability to make it possible. Many children are lacking some or all of those things which help a lot. It is an achievement to get a place. However, again, that sense of achievement which some parents or kids have, is best kept unmentioned amongst all but close friends or family. Again, people feel criticised or uncomfortable about the achievements of others and especially of the kids of others, when they or their kids haven’t had similar achievements. On one level, it’s all a bit annoying, but having some empathy and nodding and smiling, whilst just carrying on if often best. Justifying outcomes or choices is just not worth it.

I like the part about saying as little as possible about your child's selective school. However I also understand how that creates even more myths about the process, and in highly competitive areas, the myths drive the hysteria.

Before my eldest got into a selective school, I struggled with the little information anyone was willing to give about the process and the opinions on their children's selective schools. That void of information created a lot of stress of not knowing what to do, when is enough, should we do more, should we do differently, is it worth it, so on and so on.

Everyone I know said 11+ with their first child was hell, despite how the child sailed through all with the offers in the end. The second one was a breeze. Because how little info anyone had in their first try.

Then looking back, it's similar to becoming parents for the first time, with all the unknowns and unknown unknowns, despite having books and videos and advice from many many parenst before, nothing could have prepared you for the real experience. At least you're able to tell it all afterwards, not like the 11+!!!

TheBrokenCracker · 13/05/2023 14:32

Agree with @igglo on this:

Before my eldest got into a selective school, I struggled with the little information anyone was willing to give about the process and the opinions on their children's selective schools. That void of information created a lot of stress of not knowing what to do, when is enough, should we do more, should we do differently, is it worth it, so on and so on.

My child was at a regular state primary who did no prep for the state 11+ or for the private 11+, not that you could ever expect the latter of course. The head was borderline anti the kids applying to selective schools tbh, even the state grammar.

Knowing few people with older kids in the area and them reluctant to share much, it felt an uphill struggle to really understand the rules of the road. Yes you can look at sample papers when they exist but it felt like a big exercise to try and get a good understanding of what was going on, what they are looking for, how good is good enough etc. I do feel this was majorly advantageous to the local prep schools who (I now know) thoroughly understood the rules of the road and how to play the game, and to the detriment of those state educated. And if I felt like that as a committed, well educated parent tapping up my contact base to find acquaintances of acquaintances to speak to, how much harder is it for kids/parents without those advantages?

HighRopes · 13/05/2023 15:23

Completely agree with TheBroken and Igloo. It’s as much (maybe even more) about access to information as it is about money. Except that money pays prep fees (and those give access to that information and advice on the 11+), of course.

The advice from Wombat is great on a personal level, and I follow it. But on here I’m a lot more open, as I really want parents with bright kids in state primaries to get the information they need to have a go at selective schools, if that’s what they feel is right for their DC.

PreplexJ · 13/05/2023 16:26

Not sure about the lack of access to 11+ info, agree on earlier poster the switch on parents can will always get the info and preparation in their way. The prep schools advantage on information etc has been dwindling in the past years in London for private selective school. And even had no advantage if talking about super selective grammar school in London.

However I feel reading more posts on mumsnet make one feeling the 11+ process more opaque. Especially a lot of parents trying to downplay the efforts that required 😶

LondonMum20222 · 13/05/2023 17:58

I'm really intrigued as to what information primary state school parents think prep school parents get about the 11+. There seems to be the impression that prep school parents are hand-held through the process and given loads of information and advice throughout. I sincerely wish that were the case, but my DD is in Y5 in a prep school and it definitely hasn't been so far for us.

I absolutely agree that prep school kids are at an advantage in terms of the curriculum as they tend to be working a couple of years ahead in a lot of cases. But in terms of the vagaries of this 11+ bonkers system (both independent and grammar), what levels of "intelligence" (aka insane levels of practice and prep) are needed in order to be successful and what each school is looking for in terms of process / exam type etc, in our case that's all been left entirely to parents to navigate themselves.

But @WombatChocolate has pretty much nailed this whole thing. At the end of the day, a kid with parents willing to invest time and money (whether prep schools or tutors) and really figure out this crazy arms race for themselves are going to be the ones at an advantage. And that probably includes everyone on MN forums who are spending time trying to figure this all out.

EweCee · 13/05/2023 18:20

Yes, our prep school did very, very little to help the 11+ process - it was all parent led and we had to sort our kids out ourselves and prepare them.

HighRopes · 13/05/2023 18:32

My friends with DC in prep schools had meetings with the Head to discuss target schools and how realistic they were, they knew what CAT scores were and how their DC had done on them over the years, they were prompted by the school to make sure applications were done in good time and the applications were supported with references. Time off for exams was granted without any issue.

I‘m sure this isn’t true of all prep schools, but some definitely do it (and more).

I knew about these things from MN and lots of reading of school websites. No school advice, no CAT scores, no reference. Which was fine, for me, as I grew up in that system and knew where to start.

I’ve had a lot of conversations with parents who had no idea of any of this, and who asked me about it. I expect even more don’t know someone to ask, and I think it’s a shame that some DC are not applying by for selective schools because the whole process is so complicated and people are often unwilling to talk about it for various reasons.

TheBrokenCracker · 13/05/2023 19:38

HighRopes · 13/05/2023 18:32

My friends with DC in prep schools had meetings with the Head to discuss target schools and how realistic they were, they knew what CAT scores were and how their DC had done on them over the years, they were prompted by the school to make sure applications were done in good time and the applications were supported with references. Time off for exams was granted without any issue.

I‘m sure this isn’t true of all prep schools, but some definitely do it (and more).

I knew about these things from MN and lots of reading of school websites. No school advice, no CAT scores, no reference. Which was fine, for me, as I grew up in that system and knew where to start.

I’ve had a lot of conversations with parents who had no idea of any of this, and who asked me about it. I expect even more don’t know someone to ask, and I think it’s a shame that some DC are not applying by for selective schools because the whole process is so complicated and people are often unwilling to talk about it for various reasons.

I can only speak to what I’ve heard in detail from parents from about 5 prep schools I know so I am sure mileage varies. But they got all the above and the curriculum was focussed in on the 11+ private school content. With most of the autumn term dedicated to doing practice papers daily. active prepping for interviews with external tutors in to do practice interviews etc. why? Because that is what people are paying them for and how their success as a purportedly academic prep school is judged.

SamPoodle123 · 13/05/2023 19:47

igglo · 13/05/2023 11:21

I like the part about saying as little as possible about your child's selective school. However I also understand how that creates even more myths about the process, and in highly competitive areas, the myths drive the hysteria.

Before my eldest got into a selective school, I struggled with the little information anyone was willing to give about the process and the opinions on their children's selective schools. That void of information created a lot of stress of not knowing what to do, when is enough, should we do more, should we do differently, is it worth it, so on and so on.

Everyone I know said 11+ with their first child was hell, despite how the child sailed through all with the offers in the end. The second one was a breeze. Because how little info anyone had in their first try.

Then looking back, it's similar to becoming parents for the first time, with all the unknowns and unknown unknowns, despite having books and videos and advice from many many parenst before, nothing could have prepared you for the real experience. At least you're able to tell it all afterwards, not like the 11+!!!

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I wish more parents would be more open about it. I prefer to just be open with everyone when they ask about our 11+ experience. It is true many will not share info. But at least I have a sister who managed to find some info from some mums with old dc and also from looking on mumsnet found some others who were more open :) If my sister did not convince me to get a tutor for our dd at the end of year 5 (who goes to state school), I am not sure she would have been able to cover the curriculum herself! I am not even sure what they have not covered tbh. For my ds, who is year 4, I have decided to go ahead and get a head start with some atom learning. I have to ask my dd when we get to some things that my ds does not know when they cover that (and it is usually in year 5 or year 6 she will tell me).

SamPoodle123 · 13/05/2023 19:52

TheBrokenCracker · 13/05/2023 14:32

Agree with @igglo on this:

Before my eldest got into a selective school, I struggled with the little information anyone was willing to give about the process and the opinions on their children's selective schools. That void of information created a lot of stress of not knowing what to do, when is enough, should we do more, should we do differently, is it worth it, so on and so on.

My child was at a regular state primary who did no prep for the state 11+ or for the private 11+, not that you could ever expect the latter of course. The head was borderline anti the kids applying to selective schools tbh, even the state grammar.

Knowing few people with older kids in the area and them reluctant to share much, it felt an uphill struggle to really understand the rules of the road. Yes you can look at sample papers when they exist but it felt like a big exercise to try and get a good understanding of what was going on, what they are looking for, how good is good enough etc. I do feel this was majorly advantageous to the local prep schools who (I now know) thoroughly understood the rules of the road and how to play the game, and to the detriment of those state educated. And if I felt like that as a committed, well educated parent tapping up my contact base to find acquaintances of acquaintances to speak to, how much harder is it for kids/parents without those advantages?

Yes, I can relate to this. I was not sure if my dd was at the right level for certain schools. I really had no clue. Every time I mentioned the schools we were applying to parents would say how super academic they are and how impossible to get into. My dd is bright, but how am I supposed to know if she has a chance to get in. Our head was not useful at all (state school). What helped me was understanding the target mock scores for schools (from Atom). My dd ended up getting into all the schools we applied to.

But now, I am having the same thing with my ds! Except, all his exams are written, so I feel I cannot rely so much on Atom mock scores. But I guess they can help give me some indication.

SamPoodle123 · 13/05/2023 19:57

EweCee · 13/05/2023 18:20

Yes, our prep school did very, very little to help the 11+ process - it was all parent led and we had to sort our kids out ourselves and prepare them.

So they did not guide you at all on which schools to apply? The prep schools in our area help guide the parents according to their academic progress in their school. So for example they have a meeting in year 4 to start the discussion or year 5. They will also say lets see where your dc is at closer to the time in regards to applying to additional schools. At least this is what I got when speaking to different parents that have dc in the schools in our area. I discussed with them after the whole 11+ ordeal.

SamPoodle123 · 13/05/2023 20:00

TheBrokenCracker · 13/05/2023 19:38

I can only speak to what I’ve heard in detail from parents from about 5 prep schools I know so I am sure mileage varies. But they got all the above and the curriculum was focussed in on the 11+ private school content. With most of the autumn term dedicated to doing practice papers daily. active prepping for interviews with external tutors in to do practice interviews etc. why? Because that is what people are paying them for and how their success as a purportedly academic prep school is judged.

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Yes, exactly this.

HawaiiWake · 13/05/2023 20:37

SamPoodle123 · 13/05/2023 19:57

So they did not guide you at all on which schools to apply? The prep schools in our area help guide the parents according to their academic progress in their school. So for example they have a meeting in year 4 to start the discussion or year 5. They will also say lets see where your dc is at closer to the time in regards to applying to additional schools. At least this is what I got when speaking to different parents that have dc in the schools in our area. I discussed with them after the whole 11+ ordeal.

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No not all prep schools does this. This creates stress and confusion for parents. Your friends were lucky that their preps did this for them. This is why some parents panic since they are unsure and want to find a secondary school that teaches their DC and not leave it to the parents like some primary preps.

BonjourCrisette · 13/05/2023 21:38

I'm very interested in and slightly sceptical of the idea that the main advantage of prep schools is that they're all working two years ahead of the state school children. And also in the idea that you need to be working two years ahead to have a chance at these very selective schools.

DD got on fine at 11+ with what she had covered in her not at all high achieving state primary so I'm guessing nothing beyond the Y6 curriculum, and some tutoring - an hour a week in term time for about six months, much like the OP and aimed at speeding her up/exam technique as she'd got very comfortable in not having to work fast or try very hard at her state primary and had never taken any type of exam apart from Y2 SATs. She did get a bit of extension work and some fun days out doing Maths competitions etc at primary which were mainly just fun for her. I'm fairly sure she wasn't working two years ahead of the national curriculum, though she might have had the ability to do it if it had been offered.

We know children from prep schools who did not get into the schools that they preferred (most had guidance about where to apply). We know children who had a lot more tutoring who did not get into the schools they wanted (state primary, no guidance). We know children who had no tutoring who got into the schools they liked (some were advised by their preps not to apply as they had no chance). I'm not convinced prep schools know as much about this as they are thought to, though I do think that if your child is already in a selective school it may be easier to see where the child sits in the cohort of those applying to selective schools.

The highly selective schools don't want to only admit people who've been taught a lot of stuff. They want to admit people who are capable of thinking about a lot of stuff, at least the good ones do.

So to any parents reading this (perhaps years in the future) with a clever child at state primary, please don't assume your child has no chance. They might, if that is what you want for them and if that is what they want (they will probably have to put in a little bit of work, but it doesn't have to be excessive as some people seem to assume and you don't need to cover the next two years of the curriculum).

Original poster

GeorgeSpeaks · 13/05/2023 22:12

@BonjourCrisette Are you in London? They do need to have mastered the whole of the KS2 curriculum at the start of y6 to be able to answer all the questions on the grammar papers round here. That's doable though, with work.

OP posts:

SamPoodle123 · 13/05/2023 22:21

@BonjourCrisette from what I understand is private school is ahead of state schools, so they finish the curriculum early and then they begin their prep for 11+ with mocks etc. This is what I have heard from a few private school parents in our area. It might not be all the private schools, but from the ones I spoke to. I thought it was a year ahead, but some people say two years ahead.

BonjourCrisette · 13/05/2023 22:23

@GeorgeSpeaks Yes, I'm in SW London. DD got into Tiffin which I think is probably the hardest grammar near me. She also got into the other school she applied for (private).

I know for a fact she hadn't covered everything in the Y6 curriculum because she came out after the private exam and said 'what are rattios?' and I said 'do you not know what ratios are? Oh well, too late now!'

No idea what else she hadn't covered but it all seemed to work out OK in the end!

BonjourCrisette · 13/05/2023 22:27

@SamPoodle123 You see, I hear that too but I'm not convinced it's completely true. I do think that the mocks etc must be really helpful. But I don't honestly believe children in prep school Y6 are mostly working at Y8 level. Certainly what DD was doing in Y8 in Maths was significantly harder and more complex than the Y6 curriculum. I don't know if this was just her school but I'd be surprised if there were whole schools full of children (some of whom are not going to get into the more selective schools) working at that level in Y6.

SamPoodle123 · 13/05/2023 22:31

BonjourCrisette · 13/05/2023 22:27

@SamPoodle123 You see, I hear that too but I'm not convinced it's completely true. I do think that the mocks etc must be really helpful. But I don't honestly believe children in prep school Y6 are mostly working at Y8 level. Certainly what DD was doing in Y8 in Maths was significantly harder and more complex than the Y6 curriculum. I don't know if this was just her school but I'd be surprised if there were whole schools full of children (some of whom are not going to get into the more selective schools) working at that level in Y6.

No sorry, what I meant was they work up to a certain point and finish the curriculum for year 6, but they finish it early. So for example they finish the entire curriculum by lets say year 5. Then they just focus on 11+ prep until they take the exams. After that, it is just fun and review. They are not learning year 8 stuff in year 6. They just finish the curriculum early and are ahead of state schools in that way so they can prep for the 11+. By the end of year 6, state schools finish the curriculum. Although, from looking at the SATs mocks which covers the curriculum it is so much easier then the 11+