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Secondary education

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Could any child get into SW London Grammars with tutoring?

233 replies

GeorgeSpeaks · 11/05/2023 19:14

My child recently got a place at a grammar school in SW London. I'm very proud of her and she worked hard to pass the exams when none of her friends were sitting them

The thing that pisses me off is that when I tell people which school she has been allocated (I only mention when asked) they always ask if she's been tutored. One even went as far as saying she hadn't put her kid in for the exam but they would have passed if she had.

Do any kids get places without tutoring? Our primary is a state and achieves below average results compared to others in the local authority. The tutoring was an hour a week plus a few past papers in the run up to the exam.

Am I wrong to feel pissed off at this attitude? I'm probably being over sensitive!

OP posts:
caringcarer · 12/05/2023 14:08

There are children who get grammar school places with no tuition and also some that no amount of tuition will get them through. Your child has passed the exams and it sounds like sour grapes from some of the other parents.

SpringCherryPie · 12/05/2023 14:24

Yes it’s basically a way a lot of parents get their kids into selective schools without having to pay the fees of a private school.

I know because I have several friends who have all done it, some of their kids were not going to pass the entry without it. So they can then still claim their Guardian reading socialist credentials! 🙄 And these tutors were not cheap and it took months to get a pass.

It did get up my nose to be honest and I am finding it very hard to stomach the sheer fakery of it all. If you are going to pay a tutor - fine - but be honest this is making Grammar schools again only for those with money. The same with the catchment areas. Only those who an afford a house near the best ones and the tutors can get in.

PreplexJ · 12/05/2023 14:26

The most interesting question is

"Could any child get into SW London Grammars withOUT tutoring?"
😅

HawaiiWake · 12/05/2023 15:28

All these primary schools saying don’t tutor and secondary schools saying natural abilities when those families putting effort get places. So I guess it would be great for GCSEs and A levels results since they already know those families will put in effort.

puffyisgood · 12/05/2023 15:37

Depends what you mean by "tutoring". There are many forms and degrees of this, ranging from from very light touch, parent-led, support to spending lots of very expensive time. And of course a private prep school offers way more support than a state primary.

IMO, for a 'super selective' like the Sutton Grammars the figures are roughly of the order of [I have plucked each and every one of these numbers out of nowhere, they're all indicative/made up]:

(1) Likely to reach the passmark having attended a state primary with no out-of-school academic support, parent or private tutor led - you're talking about roughly top 1 or 2 % in terms of raw ability/intellectual horsepower.
(2) Likely to reach the passmark with light to medium 'extracurricular' academic support [such as a fairly relaxed private prep not topped up at all at home OR pretty decent amounts of support at home, be that bought in or parent led - maybe something like the top 5-10% in terms of raw ability]
(3) Likely to reach the passmark with very heavy support [e.g. top notch prep; relaxed prep with modest home help; state primary with really serious amounts of time put in at home one way or another] maybe something like the top 20,30,40% in terms of raw ability, something like that?

PreplexJ · 12/05/2023 15:57

puffyisgood · 12/05/2023 15:37

Depends what you mean by "tutoring". There are many forms and degrees of this, ranging from from very light touch, parent-led, support to spending lots of very expensive time. And of course a private prep school offers way more support than a state primary.

IMO, for a 'super selective' like the Sutton Grammars the figures are roughly of the order of [I have plucked each and every one of these numbers out of nowhere, they're all indicative/made up]:

(1) Likely to reach the passmark having attended a state primary with no out-of-school academic support, parent or private tutor led - you're talking about roughly top 1 or 2 % in terms of raw ability/intellectual horsepower.
(2) Likely to reach the passmark with light to medium 'extracurricular' academic support [such as a fairly relaxed private prep not topped up at all at home OR pretty decent amounts of support at home, be that bought in or parent led - maybe something like the top 5-10% in terms of raw ability]
(3) Likely to reach the passmark with very heavy support [e.g. top notch prep; relaxed prep with modest home help; state primary with really serious amounts of time put in at home one way or another] maybe something like the top 20,30,40% in terms of raw ability, something like that?

My finger in the area number will be aound 5-10% for first 2 category, maybe 20-30% for the last category - but the last category may not take grammar test at all or not go to grammar if offered

puffyisgood · 12/05/2023 16:06

PreplexJ · 12/05/2023 15:57

My finger in the area number will be aound 5-10% for first 2 category, maybe 20-30% for the last category - but the last category may not take grammar test at all or not go to grammar if offered

your estimates seem just as sensible as mine. and of course there are many levels even within my categories, e.g. a kid from a very unsupportive household, who doesn't have books at home in the house, whose parents don't bother much with parents' evenings, etc would probably need to be more like top 0.5% to reach the passmark.

as you suggest, many kids on all parts of the raw ability spectrum simply won't sit the test.

dividedduty · 12/05/2023 18:23

Some children take to tutoring, well and others are resistant, which in our bitter experience doesn't correlate with ability.

Tutoring works, when it works. Kids who are dim but docile are getting in, and bright kids with "character" are losing out.

I wish schools would realise this. Perhaps they do, and it suits them.

TheBrokenCracker · 12/05/2023 20:05

For highly selective grammars that prioritise top score I just don’t see you can plonk a very bright but unprepared child into the 11+ and have any realistic expectation they will pass. My experience was that speed was of the essence and if you didn’t know what you were looking for you just couldn’t get through it fast enough or accurately enough to get the type of rank you needed.

Quartz2208 · 12/05/2023 20:16

I think as well you can’t be unprepared for the format of the exam either - DD had light to medium support

ScrollingLeaves · 12/05/2023 20:29

I think state schools teaching of the National Curriculum will be to a standard about 2 years below the potential ability of the most able. The exam is pitched to that more advanced standard. So even clever children at state schools would most likely need home help or tutoring to pass.

HawaiiWake · 12/05/2023 20:32

@ScrollingLeaves @Quartz2208 @TheBrokenCracker , agree with your views.

jannier · 12/05/2023 20:47

My son wasn't tutored he decided 2 months before he wanted to try so we looked at a couple of papers. I know many spent a lot of money and their children lost a lot of free time to it but then they found school hard too.

thirdistheonewiththehairychest · 12/05/2023 20:48

My daughter (Y5) has been offered a place at a selective secondary school for Y7 entry and she didn't have any tutoring at all for the entrance test. It's not something that I would go around shouting about as it comes across as smug. But yes she is incredibly bright.

lunar1 · 12/05/2023 21:03

I very much doubt many children's pass with no sort of tutoring, either paid or by a parent. It's not just answering the questions, it's the speed of the exams. My sons both got highly selective grammar places, I'll be honest, I was surprised my youngest answered fast enough. He's very clever, but painfully slow normally.

PreplexJ · 12/05/2023 21:30

thirdistheonewiththehairychest · 12/05/2023 20:48

My daughter (Y5) has been offered a place at a selective secondary school for Y7 entry and she didn't have any tutoring at all for the entrance test. It's not something that I would go around shouting about as it comes across as smug. But yes she is incredibly bright.

Is this selective school in SW London or North London? If so it is the first time I heard a case like this 😀

thirdistheonewiththehairychest · 12/05/2023 21:38

PreplexJ · 12/05/2023 21:30

Is this selective school in SW London or North London? If so it is the first time I heard a case like this 😀

Ah no sorry, selective school on the south coast. I didn't realise that the London schools were a whole other level 😳

PreplexJ · 12/05/2023 21:42

dividedduty · 12/05/2023 18:23

Some children take to tutoring, well and others are resistant, which in our bitter experience doesn't correlate with ability.

Tutoring works, when it works. Kids who are dim but docile are getting in, and bright kids with "character" are losing out.

I wish schools would realise this. Perhaps they do, and it suits them.

Kind of silly anology: if high natural ability footballer doesn't do training practice in modern era, no matter how character he/she is, the professional clubs won't miss losing them out.

WombatChocolate · 12/05/2023 21:53

Of course lots of children won’t get in to superselectives, even with tutoring. Some of these schools have more than 10 applications per place.

I know children in Kent and Bucks which have some selective but not super selective schools, who were heavily tutored and who didn’t get in - so bit in the top 25-30%. In these areas, some will make it without any preparation, because a higher percentage pass and raw ability will get some in.

Switched-on parents counts for a huge amount. Switched-onnparents who understand the system and timescales and who plan ahead make a big difference. Those that buy the books and resources and research on-line and work with their kids, are often far more motivated than paid tutors will be. If you look at the ElevenPlusForum you’ll find lots of parents devoting hours to prepping who never pay a tutor. A switched on parent is also more likely to be able to find a well-regarded tutor and book them before they are booked-up. This isn’t comparable to using a group tutoring centre.

When other parents who didn’t opt into taking the exam tell you that their kid would have passed, just smile and nod and say ‘I expect you’re right’. It doesn’t matter does it….your child has got the grammar place and their child didn’t sit the exam and isn’t going. It’s like everything….people don’t like the thought that their child might not be getting something others have. Where effort is required, they don’t like the thought that either their parental effort or child’s effort has stopped them getting something.

Selective schools and children having placed to them always creates some kind of tension between parents. No-one likes the thought their kid is going to a lesser school. That’s not to say the alternatives are lesser, but people often have a perception that is the case. Everyone ends up defending their choices, whether it was to apply for selective education or not. It’s honestly not worth engaging with as it often causes bad feeling.

My advice, if your child is going to a selective school which is either state or independent, is to say nothing about it. If asked, say as little as possible. Commenting on the fact your DC worked really hard doesn’t help (other people perceive this is a comment saying their DC didn’t work hard) or saying you e chosen the school because it suits DC best doesn’t help (as people take that as a comment meaning an inferior school is for their inferior child) Say as little as possible. Always be positive about the other children and the schools they are going to. Never run down or be negative about any other schools.

And yes, most kids who get selective places have worked hard. But remmeber too, that lots work hard and don’t get places…so it isn’t simply a case of ‘deserving’ them due to hard work. Children who get the places are generally fortunate. They probably have worked hard, but they have also usually had. Itivated and switched-on parents who put them in for the exams and supported them, and naturally had the ability to make it possible. Many children are lacking some or all of those things which help a lot. It is an achievement to get a place. However, again, that sense of achievement which some parents or kids have, is best kept unmentioned amongst all but close friends or family. Again, people feel criticised or uncomfortable about the achievements of others and especially of the kids of others, when they or their kids haven’t had similar achievements. On one level, it’s all a bit annoying, but having some empathy and nodding and smiling, whilst just carrying on if often best. Justifying outcomes or choices is just not worth it.

dividedduty · 12/05/2023 22:17

@PreplexJ
I'd expect that a wannabe footballer enjoys playing football and loves the game.

Newsflash - some ten-year-olds don't think being hothoused in non-verbal reasoning and year 9 maths is their idea of an idyllic childhood.

Just because the system is fucked up, we shouldn't have to fuck up our children

PreplexJ · 12/05/2023 22:23

dividedduty · 12/05/2023 22:17

@PreplexJ
I'd expect that a wannabe footballer enjoys playing football and loves the game.

Newsflash - some ten-year-olds don't think being hothoused in non-verbal reasoning and year 9 maths is their idea of an idyllic childhood.

Just because the system is fucked up, we shouldn't have to fuck up our children

I think you get the point, most of these selective school care more about league table results than the kids itself.

To join a pro football club or not is just matter of choice. Majority of people chose local club and games for fun, exercise and enjoy.

But if people do choose to compete in that level, prepare and work hard is precondition, and yes there is luck too.

watcherintherye · 12/05/2023 22:33

The question was not ‘do all children need tutoring to pass’, but ‘could any child pass with tutoring’, to which the answer is no. Tutoring can tweak a few marks and enable children to perform to the top of their ability, but that’s all. You cannot tutor a child to achieve above their ability. Obviously if they pass - with or without tutoring - then they are able enough to pass.

PreplexJ · 12/05/2023 22:37

OP has both questions (is this an 11+ comprehension question?)

Saschka · 12/05/2023 22:42

thirdistheonewiththehairychest · 12/05/2023 21:38

Ah no sorry, selective school on the south coast. I didn't realise that the London schools were a whole other level 😳

It is more that the parents are! Grin

I also got into a selective school with no prep whatsoever (in the 1980s) - scored the highest mark of my cohort, indeed. But I wouldn’t expect to be able to do that when everyone else had had years of intense tutoring from age 5, which is what some of the pushier parents do around here.

Nowfeeltheneedtopost · 12/05/2023 22:52

ScrollingLeaves · 12/05/2023 20:29

I think state schools teaching of the National Curriculum will be to a standard about 2 years below the potential ability of the most able. The exam is pitched to that more advanced standard. So even clever children at state schools would most likely need home help or tutoring to pass.

Your assumption here is that all students are being taught at same level. The reality is that In a decent state primary school the high achieving students will be supported to work at their level. 2 yrs ahead of average is not unusual so primary schools are certainly able to support and encourage.