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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Could any child get into SW London Grammars with tutoring?

233 replies

GeorgeSpeaks · 11/05/2023 19:14

My child recently got a place at a grammar school in SW London. I'm very proud of her and she worked hard to pass the exams when none of her friends were sitting them

The thing that pisses me off is that when I tell people which school she has been allocated (I only mention when asked) they always ask if she's been tutored. One even went as far as saying she hadn't put her kid in for the exam but they would have passed if she had.

Do any kids get places without tutoring? Our primary is a state and achieves below average results compared to others in the local authority. The tutoring was an hour a week plus a few past papers in the run up to the exam.

Am I wrong to feel pissed off at this attitude? I'm probably being over sensitive!

OP posts:
RedFluffyPanda · 16/05/2023 14:12

@BonjourCrisette
But not all parents are attending church just to get child to the school. A vast majority would be a real Catholic that have not necessary that much focus on kids' education, I recon....?

SamPoodle123 · 16/05/2023 14:44

RedFluffyPanda · 16/05/2023 14:12

@BonjourCrisette
But not all parents are attending church just to get child to the school. A vast majority would be a real Catholic that have not necessary that much focus on kids' education, I recon....?

You would be surprised how many people suddenly start attending Catholic church to ensure a better school for their dc. I know a few families. Sure, usually one of the parents were Catholic usually. But non catholic partners were going to church, volunteering, doing readings etc because they knew it would help get their dc into school.

SamPoodle123 · 16/05/2023 14:47

BonjourCrisette · 16/05/2023 13:43

Why Catholic and not... English Church or Muslim or French or German schools in UK?

Because Catholic schools have a very specific set of hoops to jump through in terms of when your child is baptised and how much church attendance you have. Only highly motivated parents with the ability to find out these things and put them into practice while the child is still very young will get places for their children. Highly motivated parents with an interest in education are a very good predictor for children who do well academically.

Yes, exactly this. It is not easy to get a spot at a good Catholic school. You will have parents who never went to church more then once or twice a year or who are not even Catholic (but married to one) suddenly volunteering, doing readings etc. These are the people willing to put extra time and effort (years worth!) to get their dc into school. They will also spend a fair amount of time supporting their dc throughout school, reading to them as young dc etc.

BonjourCrisette · 16/05/2023 15:08

RedFluffyPanda · 16/05/2023 14:12

@BonjourCrisette
But not all parents are attending church just to get child to the school. A vast majority would be a real Catholic that have not necessary that much focus on kids' education, I recon....?

The vast majority of Catholics I know do not attend church weekly. Unless they have a child approaching reception age. Then they do.

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 15:13

let me try to draw some relevance above to the OP's question :

"The thing that pisses me off is that when I tell people which school she has been allocated (I only mention when asked) they always ask if she's been baptised and if we go to church every Sunday. One even went as far as saying she hadn't put her kid in for the school but they would have allocated if she is <any faith you put in> ."

RedFluffyPanda · 16/05/2023 16:27

But isn't it that then you have to go to church every Sunday until the end of secondary because there is such thing as Confirmation around the age of 13 and children at school are expected to do it? Also they have recollections and the local priests are visiting at schools.

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 16:55

RedFluffyPanda · 16/05/2023 16:27

But isn't it that then you have to go to church every Sunday until the end of secondary because there is such thing as Confirmation around the age of 13 and children at school are expected to do it? Also they have recollections and the local priests are visiting at schools.

Isn't that similar to some saying that if you tutored in, the kids will have to tutor in secondary school all the way 😂

BonjourCrisette · 16/05/2023 17:38

RedFluffyPanda · 16/05/2023 16:27

But isn't it that then you have to go to church every Sunday until the end of secondary because there is such thing as Confirmation around the age of 13 and children at school are expected to do it? Also they have recollections and the local priests are visiting at schools.

I don't think they can take your place away if you stop going to church or decide not to get confirmed!

WombatChocolate · 16/05/2023 18:11

Just a couple of things to mention; the hardest maths exam might not reflect the school that’s hardest to get into. People forget that there isn’t a set pass mark, but the pass mark is essentially set at whatever number of places the schools can offer. Independents will over-offer as not everyone will accept and they want to fill all or most places from those offered, as they know that once they go to waiting list, they often have to go quite a way down to get an acceptance, especially in areas where people apply to many schools.

Harder papers get lower scores generally. It will be harder for the majority, but the school will take the same number of students.

Some schools have easier questions, but it’s the quantity they have to get through which makes the exam difficult. Students who do well might not be the best mathematicians, but they are often trained in speed and accuracy….so such an exam is assessing these things, and certainly regardless if if you’ve covered the full range of topics or not, speed and accuracy will be absolutely key in who scores high enough to get a place. And these things certainly can be prepped for and those who haven’t seen a paper before might be brilliant mathematicians, but simply not finish the paper.

And this thing about tutoring. Of course they all say that tutoring isn’t needed…especially the state selectives. They absolutely must be seen to broaden access and not have an exam which favours those with money. But unfortunately all of these exams do, because those who have been prepared (by paid for tutors or by parents putting time and usually money into resources) are hugely advantaged.

I think it’s technically true to say that a child who has only covered the Yr5 NC COULD get a place. As others have mentioned, an exceptional child will be able to see Qs and apply knowledge they have of topics they have already covered to reach answers to get close to answers. They will also gain all of the marks for the easier questions and might score high enough that way, to get a place. 100% isn’t required. However, children who have learned more will be advantaged, as questions are likely to come up which don’t look familiar to Yr5 Maths, even if the answer might be found using that already known Maths. Those who’ve practised past papers will have been exposed to this higher level stuff and perhaps know more sophisticated techniques to find answers, or find them more quickly.

Schools know tutoring and home preparation is rife. They would prefer it wasn’t…but it is. The genie is out of the bottle and isn’t going back in. No test is untutorable, whatever schools say. It might not be the case that it’s impossible to get in without any prep, but for the most selective schools, the chances of getting in without any prep are very very slim. As number applying particularly for state super selectives continue to rocket, schools have to distinguish between candidates. One mark will separate those who either get an offer or get through to the next round. Often the difference between those 2 candidates isn’t who is best, but quite simply who was best prepared to avoid a simple error or to work a bit faster.

And I agree, that based on ratios of applicants per place, the top super selective state grammars are those that are hardest to get places at. Loads of those applicants don’t take the private school exams, as paying anything towards fees just isn’t an option. If money was no object though, many who get the state super selective places, would also get the top 10 indeoendnet places too. Often those who have applied to both state super selective and independent top 20 and got offers from both, have scholarship offers from the independent….because these kids are amongst the top performers in the indeoendnet entrance exams. The tests aren’t entirely comparable, and given that the numbers sitting and sifting that is required, and funding available for marking being different, the exact purpose and difficulty level of the tests differ. Independent school exams might have more scope for complex, more labour intensive to mark exams, which test complex understanding. More difficult and lengthy questions might appear. State schools have to rely more on multiple choice and often there will be far more questions, with few being long and really complex multi stage type questions, but the level of speed and accuracy that’s required is likely to be greater.

The vast majority of kids who get places at these schools are very able. Yes they might have been prepped hard, but they are also bright enough to have beat many others to their places. And it’s worth remembering again, that in some areas, more than 9/10 applicants won’t pass, even with prep of some type. The numbers applying are just too high. Much easier in some places, where perhaps 1/3 get in, or for some independents, pretty much everyone who applies gets an offer.

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 18:35

Not sure there is a 1 in 10 offer to applicant ratios school on UK, for super selective grammar, there are a few.

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 18:35

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 18:35

Not sure there is a 1 in 10 offer to applicant ratios school on UK, for super selective grammar, there are a few.

Not sure there is a 1 in 10 offer to applicant ratios private school on UK, for super selective grammar, there are a few.

WombatChocolate · 16/05/2023 18:46

Yes. 10 applications per place in some state grammars. It won’t be so high for independents. There simply aren’t enough parents who can afford the fees who think their child has a reasonable chance.

BonjourCrisette · 16/05/2023 19:38

many who get the state super selective places, would also get the top 10 independent places

I am sure this is true. At DD's school, everyone she knows there who sat for Tiffin got a place. I would imagine there is a similar correlation the other way round!

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 19:59

BonjourCrisette · 16/05/2023 19:38

many who get the state super selective places, would also get the top 10 independent places

I am sure this is true. At DD's school, everyone she knows there who sat for Tiffin got a place. I would imagine there is a similar correlation the other way round!

It is the absolute probability not correlation.

LondonMum20222 · 16/05/2023 20:07

At both the WHS and LEH open days the head said the applicant to offer ratio was 10:1.

Last year schools like LU and Emanuel had between 1200 and 1400 places for c.120 offers.

Those ratios absolutely do exist in the indie sector. But as everyone is always at pains to point out, most kids are applying to anywhere from 4-8 schools (on average) and they can only take one offer, so the "real" number of applicants to places is, in reality, much lower.

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 20:11

LondonMum20222 · 16/05/2023 20:07

At both the WHS and LEH open days the head said the applicant to offer ratio was 10:1.

Last year schools like LU and Emanuel had between 1200 and 1400 places for c.120 offers.

Those ratios absolutely do exist in the indie sector. But as everyone is always at pains to point out, most kids are applying to anywhere from 4-8 schools (on average) and they can only take one offer, so the "real" number of applicants to places is, in reality, much lower.

This is applicant vs place rather than applicant vs offer ratio it is very different.

For easier maths probably just calculate the last position rank vs the total applicant, those schools mentioned above won't be top 10% rank, will be some what 50%rank or lower I think

RedFluffyPanda · 16/05/2023 20:30

@PreplexJ No, it is not similar. I know Tiffin parents through extracurricular activity my son has been doing on Saturdays for the last 7 years. The mums there have kids in secondary schools, a few in Tiffin Schools. I can only say part of what they say- a lot of kids attends after school tutoring.
That extracurricular activity on Saturdays takes place in Richars Challoner Catholic school buildings. Many mums there have their kids in that school Mon- Fri or in Holy Cross school for girls

LondonMum20222 · 16/05/2023 20:53

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 20:11

This is applicant vs place rather than applicant vs offer ratio it is very different.

For easier maths probably just calculate the last position rank vs the total applicant, those schools mentioned above won't be top 10% rank, will be some what 50%rank or lower I think

I meant applicant : place ratio.

LondonMum20222 · 16/05/2023 20:55

RedFluffyPanda · 16/05/2023 20:30

@PreplexJ No, it is not similar. I know Tiffin parents through extracurricular activity my son has been doing on Saturdays for the last 7 years. The mums there have kids in secondary schools, a few in Tiffin Schools. I can only say part of what they say- a lot of kids attends after school tutoring.
That extracurricular activity on Saturdays takes place in Richars Challoner Catholic school buildings. Many mums there have their kids in that school Mon- Fri or in Holy Cross school for girls

Same re Henrietta Barnett. A friend now in Y9 there says a high proportion have been tutored since Y7 - first because they'd all been tutored so heavily to get in they feared they wouldn't keep up, then tutored to try to get in the top set of maths, now tutored to get ahead for GCSEs even though they are clearly all working well ahead of NC.

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 20:58

@RedFluffyPanda the similarities I drew was an poor attempt of irony.

Seriously as I mentioned easier in the thread it is not a secret that a lot of students from top secondary schools using extra tutor to some extent. It is not difficult to observe at all.

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 21:00

LondonMum20222 · 16/05/2023 20:53

I meant applicant : place ratio.

Hence my earlier point the applicant : offer (implied) ratio with 10:1 does NOT exist in London indies that I know of.

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 21:08

LondonMum20222 · 16/05/2023 20:55

Same re Henrietta Barnett. A friend now in Y9 there says a high proportion have been tutored since Y7 - first because they'd all been tutored so heavily to get in they feared they wouldn't keep up, then tutored to try to get in the top set of maths, now tutored to get ahead for GCSEs even though they are clearly all working well ahead of NC.

HBS applicants vs offer (implied) ratio is about top 5-10% in recent years.

It is not uncommon to continue tutoring across all the super slective indies or grammar.

But the level HBS do with extra tutoring is probably one of the most widespread.

BonjourCrisette · 16/05/2023 23:49

The ratios are affected by more than just children/parents who think they would like to apply though. If it's a school that everyone is telling you is just for the very cleverest, some people will self-select out. If it's a school that charges money to sit the test, some people will self-select out (or not realise that bursary applicants often don't have to pay). If it's a free grammar school, a far wider range of children/families will apply because why not? Doesn't cost you a thing and you might get lucky. So applicants to places isn't necessarily the most useful or meaningful metric. In DD's primary there were a number of children who applied to Tiffin who clearly did not really have a chance but they gave it a go on the off chance and why not?

The only highly selective independent school I have experience of is not one where there is loads of tutoring (I literally don't know of any tutoring and nor does DD). And why would you even bother when every teacher is available for help if you ask them for it and older girls give up their free time to help younger ones? DD has had loads of biology help (her worst subject) from an older girl who has volunteered to mentor younger students. She will do the same in her stronger subjects when the time comes I am sure.

As for the idea of tutoring to get into the top Maths set, words fail me. DD has been in the bottom set in a similarly bright group of girls for most of her time at secondary school. This set are mainly going to get at least a 7 in their GCSEs and most will get 8s and 9s (in most other schools in the country it would look like a top set). There would be no advantage at all in being in a higher set, particularly since DD has no interest in Maths or Sciences at A Level. If Henrietta Barnett are not supporting their bright girls in the lower sets appropriately that is a great shame. DD's school was always at pains to point out that everyone was doing the same content, it was just that the higher sets might work a bit faster.

PreplexJ · 17/05/2023 00:14

"The ratios are affected by more than just children/parents who think they would like to apply though."

Yes, I agree statement above. Conditional statistic is more difficult to estimate.

My suggestion is that if things were being equal, there number of capable students who only applied superselective grammar schools but would have gone in top indies if they apply will
out rank a substantial amount of students that currently get place in top indies.

And for the tutoring part, yes I know students from the school above poster mentioned, and yes I also know there are case of use external tutor for GCSE. I don't think it is necessary but yet they do. Why? I assume for various reasons.

For one of the case I am aware of the bright girl in the bubble from Prep school and even the highest tuition fee private school in London is not enough for the parents think, they can afford and they want more.

RedFluffyPanda · 17/05/2023 12:11

PreplexJ · 16/05/2023 20:58

@RedFluffyPanda the similarities I drew was an poor attempt of irony.

Seriously as I mentioned easier in the thread it is not a secret that a lot of students from top secondary schools using extra tutor to some extent. It is not difficult to observe at all.

So what the mums were saying is true about tutoring. They were also mentioning poor mental health support at school and the children struggle. Anorexia and self harm exists more frequently than elsewhere. I was pretty horrified to hear it.